JAMAKE1
Veteran
P.S. DC Flyer:
I don't know of any regional pilots that make as much as the President...
I don't know of any regional pilots that make as much as the President...
What Are You Really Worth?
- Thread starter DCFlyer
- Start date
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #77
Busdrvr said:
This is crazy and so are you...go on with all this BS...but a regional Pilot can fly to Canada, Mexico and the Bahamas at no more then $100 per hour - back to my original question why should you make more? I agree it is challenging to fly into Europe - this is why the international language is ENGLISH - how many languages do you know? If you look into the SFH - UAL pilots screwed the customers relying on UNION regulations....give me a break. Take off and landing can be done on Flight Simulator - ever heard of TIN CUP show? You guys and gals do a great job, but justify why it is worth over 100k or even 200k per year. Heck if a COMAIR pilot can land at DCA why can't you land anywhere?
1a. Housing for companies like ACA, REPUBLIC and the rest who worked for majors in expensive areas....do not cry about yourself.
1. Cost of Housing and Location - Give me a Break - Pilots live in STL, SLC, OAK, DFW, KC...all over the place with a commute.
2. BTW you are a very well educated pilot - I do not know any that came from a top 5 university. All of my friends from top 5 schools chose other careers. You are the only pilot I know working on a PHD. I am amazed that you have expanded your career outside of US Airways - unlike most of the people here who I am trying to communicate with. - PS I consider you anything but "TIPICAL" I am waiting for other Pilots to put them in the same category as yourself. Dude - give me the reality - did you really buy a 1 Million Dollar house or are you commuting?
3. MECHS deserve all that they are paid - no questions here.
4. SMF - Lets go toe to toe here - UAL Pilots Screwed everyone - for every last golden egg....
5. Dude look at the union contracts - that is why everyone is being (or has been downgraded). It is crazy what was accepted. Please justify to me the clauses which were included.
6. Why not give all of the pilots the same work conditions as JetBlue - Give me a break. I read some of the bogus conditions of some of the Union Agreements from 99-01...they were nuts.
Where do you work now - how is it better?
BTW
My Qualifications are an Undergrad and Grad Degree in the DC area. What do I make about 100k a year and have no union protections. At will Employment if you call it. I don't deserve more then I have earned - and it could change any day without me walking out.
BoeingBoy
Veteran
- Nov 9, 2003
- 16,512
- 5,865
- Banned
- #78
DCFlyer said:
I think you missed parts of my post. $50-$100 is the bottom of the barrel in this industry (the Mesa's, etc at the lower end and the operators of "big" airplanes at the upper end). That doesn't mean you can hire the "best" at those wages, though some of them will be due to more pilots than jobs. If you want to consistantly hire "the best", you've got to pay more.
You also missed the part about being worth millions once or twice a career (hopefully that's all). If you're on the plane during one of those times, you've got to ask yourself "Do I want a pilot who couldn't get a better job or do I want the best pilot this company can hire?", or as Dirty Harry said "Do you feel lucky?"
Jim
ps - look to ValueJet for guidance. Not the crash - odds are that any carrier that's been around long enough will bend an airplane. Look at what happened to their operation after the crash when the FAA had them under the microscope.
- Thread Starter
- Thread starter
- #79
BoeingBoy said:
Jim - you must have missed the part
BTW Pilot Jim,
"Let's pay screeners and agents Millions when they discover those guns, tools and other weapons of mass destruction when they equal the skills of a qualified pilot such as yourself.
A concerned passenger. Thanks for driving safely! "
Why are you worth more then the average regional Pilot or Co-Piliot? Heck with 700s, 145s, 170s and 190s....where do the Majors have to go (except Internationally?)
BoeingBoy
Veteran
- Nov 9, 2003
- 16,512
- 5,865
- Banned
- #81
You're right, I missed the second post.....
As soon as they have to handle the results when someone else messes up, they can get the pay. Once I get on that airplane, the buck stops with me and there's a price for that. TSA misses something, I and my crew are the one's that have to deal with it, not them. CSA misses something, I and my crew are the one's that may have to deal with it, not them. Mechanic misses something, I and my crew are the one's that may have to deal with it, not them. ATC screws up and puts us on a collision course, I and my crew have to deal with it, not them. Etc, etc.
You want pilots meeting Mesa hiring standards - pay their salary. If you want better qualified, more experienced pilots - you pay more.
I'll ask you. When you get on an airplane any dark, stormy night which would you rather have:
A first officer who just got his commercial license with instrument rating (it's been a long time, but around 200-250 hours of flying mostly single-engine prop airplanes), and a captain who just got his ATP (with just enough time at Mesa to qualify for the ATP, but mostly flying those little single-engine props, too), but hey - they did passably well in the simulator.
Or a first officer who has an ATP with 5000 hours (2000 in the plane you're flying on, 4000 in jets) and a captain with 10000 to 15000 hours, nearly all in jets and several thousand in the plane you're flying on.
$50,000 to $100,000 will get you the first, but if that's what you want there are airlines out there that will provide it.
Jim
As soon as they have to handle the results when someone else messes up, they can get the pay. Once I get on that airplane, the buck stops with me and there's a price for that. TSA misses something, I and my crew are the one's that have to deal with it, not them. CSA misses something, I and my crew are the one's that may have to deal with it, not them. Mechanic misses something, I and my crew are the one's that may have to deal with it, not them. ATC screws up and puts us on a collision course, I and my crew have to deal with it, not them. Etc, etc.
You want pilots meeting Mesa hiring standards - pay their salary. If you want better qualified, more experienced pilots - you pay more.
I'll ask you. When you get on an airplane any dark, stormy night which would you rather have:
A first officer who just got his commercial license with instrument rating (it's been a long time, but around 200-250 hours of flying mostly single-engine prop airplanes), and a captain who just got his ATP (with just enough time at Mesa to qualify for the ATP, but mostly flying those little single-engine props, too), but hey - they did passably well in the simulator.
Or a first officer who has an ATP with 5000 hours (2000 in the plane you're flying on, 4000 in jets) and a captain with 10000 to 15000 hours, nearly all in jets and several thousand in the plane you're flying on.
$50,000 to $100,000 will get you the first, but if that's what you want there are airlines out there that will provide it.
Jim
"I agree it is challenging to fly into Europe - this is why the international language is ENGLISH - how many languages do you know?"
The controller says "Flying Tiger XX, Descend to seven zero zero". What altitude do you descend to?
1a. Actually, they tend to domicile in cheaper areas, and the typical employee (like a resident) is much younger while performing the job he see's as a stepping stone to gain experience for the majors one day.
1. Then the cost of commuting MUST be considered when trying to determine the appropriate salary.
2. I am typical. I know several pilots who have law degrees, and even more who have masters (I'm not an Airways guy, although as a pilot group, they are among the best). Most ex-military pilots have a masters. The median age for a new-hire pilot was around 37. I make approx 50K more than a U/UAL FO, am home every night, and am able to pursue another degree. I don't get nervous around thunderstorms, and got to see my kids faces on Christmas morning. If I'm late for work, so what. I've seen both sides. You have no idea of the life of an airline employee. I do. It's barely worth double the money. While an Airline Pilot, I lived an hour from a cheaper, more senior domicile, and was renting while awaiting an adequate pay increase so that I could purchase a middle class home.
4. pretty broad brush eh? but back at the "toe to toe" thing. Do you think UAL went out to the jerk convention and picked it's employees? FWIW, I KNOW the kind of person they recruited and hired. Except for the simulator and technical portion at UAL, the process at UAL and SWA were pretty similar, with lot's of "overlap" with respect to who got hired. About half of the pilots were military officers. Many of the same folks who are out serving the country today. These are honorable people, don't use your broad brush. Even if some people did some bad things, does that make all UAL pilots evil? Are all muslims evil? The company was told that they needed 1000 more pilots to fly the summer schedule. they ignored it. I'm a right wing free market economist, but in the case of UAL, the COMPANY screwed the pooch. Were there some shenanigans? probably, I don't personally know of any specific cases, but had the comapny manned the airline instead of "right-sizing" in anticipation of a merger, the summer would have been a heck of a lot better.
5. Please tell me ONE ALPA contract item you disagree with. I'll tell you why it's there. Fair enough?
6. Jetblu doesn't have many "conditions" yet because they haven't "had" to, although that will likely change as good ole Dave is overstepping reality with the E-190's. The Blu "system" is such that it's tough to "underutilize" pilots (coast to coast). The problems come when you schedule a guy to do DSM turns from ORD. More legs, more chance for disruption, more legs, less pay per hour "on duty". Keep in mind, Jblu is new. A majority of Blu pilots do not consider current rates to be "enough" over the long term. Look back at AMR in the late 80's. The young guys KNEW about the B-scale when they came aboard. They agreed to work for those wages. But yet a few years later, they demanded and got parity with other majors. If ALPA has a fault, it's not advocating industry-wide minimum pay standards. but again, please tell me the bogus conditions of the contract.
As to my current employer? Nunya. But as I said before, I've been on both sides, and my current gig tops Airline Pilot in EVERY way. My current gig is non-union. It doesn't NEED to be union. Airline pilot/ Mechanic NEEDS to be union, as much for your safety as for my pay.
The controller says "Flying Tiger XX, Descend to seven zero zero". What altitude do you descend to?
1a. Actually, they tend to domicile in cheaper areas, and the typical employee (like a resident) is much younger while performing the job he see's as a stepping stone to gain experience for the majors one day.
1. Then the cost of commuting MUST be considered when trying to determine the appropriate salary.
2. I am typical. I know several pilots who have law degrees, and even more who have masters (I'm not an Airways guy, although as a pilot group, they are among the best). Most ex-military pilots have a masters. The median age for a new-hire pilot was around 37. I make approx 50K more than a U/UAL FO, am home every night, and am able to pursue another degree. I don't get nervous around thunderstorms, and got to see my kids faces on Christmas morning. If I'm late for work, so what. I've seen both sides. You have no idea of the life of an airline employee. I do. It's barely worth double the money. While an Airline Pilot, I lived an hour from a cheaper, more senior domicile, and was renting while awaiting an adequate pay increase so that I could purchase a middle class home.
4. pretty broad brush eh? but back at the "toe to toe" thing. Do you think UAL went out to the jerk convention and picked it's employees? FWIW, I KNOW the kind of person they recruited and hired. Except for the simulator and technical portion at UAL, the process at UAL and SWA were pretty similar, with lot's of "overlap" with respect to who got hired. About half of the pilots were military officers. Many of the same folks who are out serving the country today. These are honorable people, don't use your broad brush. Even if some people did some bad things, does that make all UAL pilots evil? Are all muslims evil? The company was told that they needed 1000 more pilots to fly the summer schedule. they ignored it. I'm a right wing free market economist, but in the case of UAL, the COMPANY screwed the pooch. Were there some shenanigans? probably, I don't personally know of any specific cases, but had the comapny manned the airline instead of "right-sizing" in anticipation of a merger, the summer would have been a heck of a lot better.
5. Please tell me ONE ALPA contract item you disagree with. I'll tell you why it's there. Fair enough?
6. Jetblu doesn't have many "conditions" yet because they haven't "had" to, although that will likely change as good ole Dave is overstepping reality with the E-190's. The Blu "system" is such that it's tough to "underutilize" pilots (coast to coast). The problems come when you schedule a guy to do DSM turns from ORD. More legs, more chance for disruption, more legs, less pay per hour "on duty". Keep in mind, Jblu is new. A majority of Blu pilots do not consider current rates to be "enough" over the long term. Look back at AMR in the late 80's. The young guys KNEW about the B-scale when they came aboard. They agreed to work for those wages. But yet a few years later, they demanded and got parity with other majors. If ALPA has a fault, it's not advocating industry-wide minimum pay standards. but again, please tell me the bogus conditions of the contract.
As to my current employer? Nunya. But as I said before, I've been on both sides, and my current gig tops Airline Pilot in EVERY way. My current gig is non-union. It doesn't NEED to be union. Airline pilot/ Mechanic NEEDS to be union, as much for your safety as for my pay.
N924PS
Veteran
- May 9, 2004
- 2,036
- 1,529
DCFlyer said:
There are FAA Licensed Pilots and Airframe and Powerplant Mechanics. Certain minimum standards of training and experience must be met to obtain certification.
I state once again the word MINIMUM. Currently, there are many of those minimally qualified pilots and aviation maintenance technicians employed at US air carriers. Mostly at the Regional Airlines.
Most of these newly minted Captains and First Officers have worked hard in their training endeavors to meet these minimum standards. However, unlike their predecessors from previous generations of airline pilots, many lack any real world experience or seasoning.
This lack of genuine experience is offset by aircraft that are simpler and more automated. Additionally, pilots before have fought for and been instrumental developing many systems and procedures that further enhance safety, even with a minimally experienced crew.
As an example, an acquaintance of mine has a daughter flying for Mesa Airlines as an EMB-145 F/O. She was trained through an ab initio pilot training program Mesa Airlines has with a college in New Mexico. She became a jet co-pilot with around 500 hours Total Pilot Time. Although Commercial/Instrument rated, this pilot had never logged any significant actual in the clouds instrument flight time. In fact, had never flown an instrument approach in actual IFR conditions.
As recently as 2000, someone so minimally qualified would not have been offered an interview with a turbojet airline operation. Most applicants would have had a minimum of 2000 flight hours with some experience, either as a military pilot or previous airline or corporate flying positions. Most of those hired far exceeded the minimums specified for employment.
There used to be an old story about a Flight Surgeon administering military pilot medical exams prior to flight school. As he was performing the exam he would seriously ask "Son, are you sure you want to fly a plane that was built by the lowest bidder?"
That is who USAirways is using to outsource former Mainline Pilot, F/A, Customer Service jobs. The lowest bidder.
Happy Flying.
goingboeing
Veteran
- Jan 30, 2004
- 584
- 1
US1YFARE said:
The customers are the problem in case you haven't noticed lately.They expect to fly from NY to LA for $129 and also receive FULL service.[including food service]
They need to get their cheap ass on a Greyhound bus because they want an airfare for a bus price. It cost a lot more to operate a B-757 or A-320 than a Greyhound bus.
And the MANAGEMENT is responsible for getting the current airline customer additcted to the DRUG named CHEAP AIR FARES.
[and even Robert Crandall agrees with this part of my statement].
The management has created this monster and it is too big to get back into the cage.
goingboeing
Veteran
- Jan 30, 2004
- 584
- 1
A little info for D.C flyer
about 10 years ago my wife and I were on a DC-10 flight from DFW to PHX. It was and evening flight and about 1 hour from DFW were encountered SEVERE turbulence.The pilot had to reduce power,dive,add power,climb,and turn to attempt to get out of the turbulence.This lasted for about 10 minutes but seemed like an eternity.
I did not hear one passenger on the whole aircraft complain about the $275K per year that the DC-10 captain was earning.
Greyhound mentality airline customers will pay a doctor $75.00 for 5 minutes in his office but complain that an airline captain makes $165/ flight hour.
The flight time and education level required for an airline captain costs more than the 8 years for a doctor[+ 2 years intern and residency]
Heavy aircraft flight time is VERY expensive and you do not think the airline pilots should be compensated properly for the training they have received?
I guess you could go down to the local street corner and hire some illegals to fly your flight for you. You can probably hire them for $8.00/flight hour
P.S. I'm not even a pilot but an AMT who understands and appreciates the job they do.
about 10 years ago my wife and I were on a DC-10 flight from DFW to PHX. It was and evening flight and about 1 hour from DFW were encountered SEVERE turbulence.The pilot had to reduce power,dive,add power,climb,and turn to attempt to get out of the turbulence.This lasted for about 10 minutes but seemed like an eternity.
I did not hear one passenger on the whole aircraft complain about the $275K per year that the DC-10 captain was earning.
Greyhound mentality airline customers will pay a doctor $75.00 for 5 minutes in his office but complain that an airline captain makes $165/ flight hour.
The flight time and education level required for an airline captain costs more than the 8 years for a doctor[+ 2 years intern and residency]
Heavy aircraft flight time is VERY expensive and you do not think the airline pilots should be compensated properly for the training they have received?
I guess you could go down to the local street corner and hire some illegals to fly your flight for you. You can probably hire them for $8.00/flight hour
P.S. I'm not even a pilot but an AMT who understands and appreciates the job they do.
goingboeing
Veteran
- Jan 30, 2004
- 584
- 1
DCFlyer said:
How much training and skills do you think the average AMT[A&Paircraft mechanic] uses daily on a Heavy "C" aircraft overhaul line? I guess you could hire Temps standing on the street corner to do the work and then you could fly from NY to LA for $49.00
elmerfishpaw
Member
- Jul 18, 2003
- 56
- 0
DCFlyer said:
I don't work for USAirways, but I do work for another airline. The question you ask is beyond tacky. I think a certain percentage of customers need to learn the difference between SERVICE and SERVITUDE. Just asking the question implys that you think you'll get an answer. Really, my financial opinions are none of your business.
