What Are You Really Worth?

[DCFlyer]

DC Flyer:

Your original question was a fair one to ask. But your last one was not. Why should any CEO, CFO, COO, doctor, television news anchor, or lawyer make more than the president of the United States, for that matter? In answer to your question, the respective professions mentioned require a unique set of skills and thus are more highly valued. When one is highly specialized, such as a pilot, one has a certain amount of leverage with which to command one's price at the bargaining table or in the marketplace. Unfortunately, lower skilled workers (in which there is a large pool draw from) do not have the same leverage in determining one's worth with regard to income. For now, pilots have lost some of the leverage they enjoyed with the proliferation of low cost carriers capturing a greater percentage of market share. Perhaps as globalization continues, other professions such as CEO's and doctors will experience a downward pressure on their income as well.

[post="233629"][/post]​

Mr. Jamake1,

Why is this such an unfair question? What is unique about a pilot who goes to college and has a few weeks of triaining to land a plane? Please help me and the rest of the public understand why a Co-Pilot is so skilled as say a doctor or CEO? You pilots need to quit with the BS.

Another customer.

 

[deano]

Deano - my only hope is that your peers care more about staying employed then you do. Best of luck at MIDAS - my muffler seems to be rusting.

[post="233598"][/post]​

First my name is CURT and NOT deano...although it's a great name...

I am retired from U so take your rusty pipes somewhere else.

I am a licensed aircraft mechanic and a journeymen machinist and a electronics repairmen “part time when wanting to“. So your visions of me working under a rusty automobile is only in your imagination. I don't need to do such things to earn my living because I have a few different skills coupled with God given brains to know what's right and what's wrong. There is plenty wrong at U and why I left.

Trust me. The employees at U are worth their salt, many very intelligent individuals there that are being exploited and abused by men of zero morals and even less scruples.

 

[PITbull]

BTW Pilot Jim,

Let's pay screeners and agents Millions when they discover those guns, tools and other weapons of mass destruction when they equal the skills of a qualified pilot such as yourself.

A concerned passenger. Thanks for driving safely!

[post="233625"][/post]​

What are we worth you ask? Answer: ...we all are worth much more than you

Who ever employs you is obviously paying you way too much!

 

[JAMAKE1]

For the record DC Flyer, I am not a pilot. But I do know that the skills required to become one require more than "just a few weeks of training".

 

[DCFlyer]

What are you some kind of bird brain?

What ar we worth you ask? Answer: ...we all are worth much more than you

Who ever employs you is obviously paying you way too much!

[post="233634"][/post]​

Okay you busted me...so they teach a few classes at the local regional airport...but bottomline it doesn't take much to start landing a plane for a regional.

 

[LGA Fleet Service]

What is unique about a pilot who goes to college and has a few weeks of triaining to land a plane?

[post="233632"][/post]​

A few weeks of training? Hell, is that all it takes? Sheesh, and here I was thinking it took years of training and education to fly a commercial transport aircraft. :blink:


Tell you what sport, why dont you go get those "Few weeks of training" and strap on a 737 and fly into LGA some summer afternoon in heavy thunder storms...

 

[DCFlyer]

A few weeks of training? Hell, is that all it takes? Sheesh, and here I was thinking it took years of training and education to fly a commercial transport aircraft. :blink:
Tell you what sport, why dont you go get those "Few weeks of training" and strap on a 737 and fly into LGA some summer afternoon in heavy thunder storms...

[post="233639"][/post]​

Hmm...so it takes 1,000 hours of time + 100 hours of multi + 100 hours instrument...what is the deal? Dude that isn't rocket science to start for a regional.

From a customer's perspective mechs are much more educated in comparison to pilots.

 

[Busdrvr]

I guess someone appointed you God - My only qualm is that US Airways is messing up the Star Alliance. I asked one question, and nobody will respond.

[post="233583"][/post]​

I'll respond, but I expect you to then provide us with YOUR qualifications, what you make, and what you "deserve"

First, a little perspective. One must consider the cost of housing, ect in the major cities that airlines hub in. A 2800 SF home in OAK (not even SF) on a .2 acre lot will set you back a little north of $1,000,000. Of course we can "commute", but if you want that figured in, then you must consider the cost of a crash pad, and factor additional hours "at work".

I was an Airline Pilot at a major.

Qualifications (I'm "typical"): Graduated from one of the top 5 Universities in the nation. SAT/ACT scores in top 1%, GRE's, top 4%. BS, MBA, currently working on PhD. Over 5000 flight hours (3500 military, 350 combat). Flight Instructor in supersonic trainer. Trained US and allied pilots. Worldwide experience, from 13k ft runways in the U.S. to 3500 ft dirt "runways" in place you haven't heard of.

Salary I feel I'm worth? Check the UAL 2000 rates. not a penny less.

Mechanics? They deserve AT LEAST 100K. I remember some tool on this board who used to attack the lowly airline employees and then brag about his 6 figure job fixing "million dollar equipment". These guys fix $100 MILLION EQUIPMENT. If they "screw up", PEOPLE DIE. They must have the professionalism to do what's right regardless of pressure from anyone to "cut corners". they have to get to the parking lot AT LEAST 30 minutes before the shift, and don't get back to the lot until at least 30 AFTER the shift (add an hour to the old 8 hour day). They must be licensed, and are subject to prison for an on the job mistake. Oh did I mention that people DIE when they screw up... And they must also pony up the funds to live in some of the highest cost cities in the U.S.

Only fly 30 hours a month? GMAFB. That ridiculous "average" includes things like guys on long term sick leave (can't fly pregnant or on crutches), guys who are doing annual training, upgrade training (I didn't park all the 727's...), and it doesn't count the augmented crew member's flight time, or "deadhead" time. If you want pilots and F/A's to fly more, than you must also expect more cancellations, and less ability to recover. If on only one day a month, WX is such at your hub that you need 25% more crewmembers to "fix" the situation, then in your world of maxed out crews, they all cancel. Operational integrity requires more surplus factors of production. A UAL narrow body F/O can be scheduled away from home for 380 hours a month, and only be given 10 days off, which can be moved at the company's whim. (more time away and less days off than SWA, Einstein ). A narrowbody F/O currently makes between $25,000 and $45,000 less per year than an equally experienced USAF or Navy pilot.

Union forcing the company to put an unneeded guy in first class? You're showing your ignorance. The third pilot is REQUIRED when the flight exceeds 8 hours SCHEDULED duration. The company plans the flight at the bottom of the NATs at max Mach to keep the SCHEDULED time below 8 hours (slightly). The flights are night flights (depart in the evening, land after sunrise). Is it your contention (based on your apparent lack of any concept of aviation beyond the tray table in front of you) that two pilots, after flying 7 hours and 55 minutes, outside of the normal circadian rhythm, are good to go when dropping into one of the busiest airfields on the planet with controllers and other airplanes manned by folks speaking another language, with some of the worst icing conditions I've ever seen, will be on their "A Game"? The extra pilot is a SAFETY ISSUE, but if they can give you a better set of earmuffs in your goody bag instead, then "screw em", right? but since you feel the fed's will "protect you", maybe you need to review the CLT Beech Accident, or the Valudeath crash. Yup, the Fed's were all over those safety issues.... And since you are so big on minimum levels of safety, you need to understand that a 23 YO 1500 hour high school grad for a Capt, with a 350 hour booger eater as the F/O is a "legal" crew on a 747-400.

CSR's? As with the mechanics, they must arrive at work long before the start of the shift, and doesn't leave the lot until long after the shift. I'll say this, they couldn't pay me enough to put up with some of the condescending BS some folks seem to exude on this board.

Why are employees working for the wages being paid today? To some degree, they're stuck. Most would not have chosen this career knowing what today's wages would be. The company is deriving a certain value from an employee's seniority, and deducting it out of that employees check.

How can comair, ASA, ect get away with lower wages, and still get "quality" employees who don't kill people? Same way a hospital gets residents to work for $30K, they trade current wages for the prospect of higher wages in the future. Take away those prospects, and the future isn't too bright. If you pay peanuts, only monkey's will come to work. I'm not condoning "sick outs", I'm just pointing out that good employees aren't cheap. You roll into a time of year when people DO get sick more often (cold dreary Philly....), then you take away the economic incentive to "suck it up" and show up despite being "under the weather", then scratch your head when the house of cards falls....

Why are union contracts so long? Because we like ink? GMAFB. They are long because the company looked at the LAST contract and found a loophole to screw a guy. so then the next contract comes out, and the union MUST close the "loophole" because the company doesn't have the class to treat it's employees well. Example. ALPA "allowed" the company to schedule guys away for more hours a month, so that they could utilize a guy or two who may have hit the max TAFB for a few more flight hours. What did the company do? They started scheduling almost EVERY NB pilot over 300 TAFB, with many lines maxed out. these lines now include 5 day trips with under 20 hours of flying, and layovers of 36 hours DOMESTIC. It may sound "glamorous", but you can only "explore Des Moines" so many times.....

 

[neverhome]

Mr. Neverhome,

You are killing me (and everyone else)...so pilots were making more then the president of the US - we can go into details with the benefits and the likes (specifically union pensions and healthcare after retirement). But bottom line is that pilots were making more then the US President.

Abstract: The salary of the President of the United States remained unchanged, at $200,000 per annum from 1969 to 2001

http://www.pennyhill.com/presidents/rs20114.html

Please let me know why a Pilot should be making more then the President of the Free World?

[post="233608"][/post]​

I was referring to post 2001 when the President makes 400k. I told you I didn't know how much pilots made before that. Today's reality is that no pilot makes more than the President.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

C'mon guys; DCFlyer is obviously a troll trying to cause trouble. Me thinks it's a CCY troll at that.

NOW, about comparing pilot salaries to the President. Hmmmm... Yale Graduate with a C average, becomes baseball owner and trades Sammy Sosa or aviator graduate from Naval Academy with some service in 'Nam (something C-student at Yale chickened out on). Gee, who should be paid more?

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program...

 

[deano]

C'mon guys; DCFlyer is obviously a troll trying to cause trouble.

[post="233652"][/post]​

Been there, done that, thrown off.....





Pilots, they can have that job. I tried it when I was a kid and knew within weeks it's wasn't me. Weather, traffic, rules, schedules, away from home on and on, there isn’t enough money in it and no matter what they make it isn’t enough as far as this guy is concerned.

 

[BoeingBoy]

DCFlyer,

Here's what the FAR's have to say about getting an ATP (Airline Transport Pilot certificate), which is pretty much required to get an airline job.

§ 61.153 Eligibility requirements: General.
top

To be eligible for an airline transport pilot certificate, a person must:

(a) Be at least 23 years of age;

(B) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating limitations on that applicant's pilot certificate as are necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft;

© Be of good moral character;

(d) Meet at least one of the following requirements:

(1) Hold at least a commercial pilot certificate and an instrument rating;

(2) Meet the military experience requirements under §61.73 of this part to qualify for a commercial pilot certificate, and an instrument rating if the person is a rated military pilot or former rated military pilot of an Armed Force of the United States; or

(3) Hold either a foreign airline transport pilot or foreign commercial pilot license and an instrument rating, without limitations, issued by a contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation.

(e) Meet the aeronautical experience requirements of this subpart that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought before applying for the practical test;

(f) Pass a knowledge test on the aeronautical knowledge areas of §61.155© of this part that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought;

(g) Pass the practical test on the areas of operation listed in §61.157(e) of this part that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought; and

(h) Comply with the sections of this part that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought.

[Doc. No. 25910, 62 FR 16298, Apr. 4, 1997; Amdt. 61–103, 62 FR 40905, July 30, 1997]
§ 61.155 Aeronautical knowledge.
top

(a) General. The knowledge test for an airline transport pilot certificate is based on the aeronautical knowledge areas listed in paragraph © of this section that are appropriate to the aircraft category and class rating sought.

(B) Aircraft type rating. A person who is applying for an additional aircraft type rating to be added to an airline transport pilot certificate is not required to pass a knowledge test if that person's airline transport pilot certificate lists the aircraft category and class rating that is appropriate to the type rating sought.

© Aeronautical knowledge areas. (1) Applicable Federal Aviation Regulations of this chapter that relate to airline transport pilot privileges, limitations, and flight operations;

(2) Meteorology, including knowledge of and effects of fronts, frontal characteristics, cloud formations, icing, and upper-air data;

(3) General system of weather and NOTAM collection, dissemination, interpretation, and use;

(4) Interpretation and use of weather charts, maps, forecasts, sequence reports, abbreviations, and symbols;

(5) National Weather Service functions as they pertain to operations in the National Airspace System;

(6) Windshear and microburst awareness, identification, and avoidance;

(7) Principles of air navigation under instrument meteorological conditions in the National Airspace System;

(8) Air traffic control procedures and pilot responsibilities as they relate to en route operations, terminal area and radar operations, and instrument departure and approach procedures;

(9) Aircraft loading, weight and balance, use of charts, graphs, tables, formulas, and computations, and their effect on aircraft performance;

(10) Aerodynamics relating to an aircraft's flight characteristics and performance in normal and abnormal flight regimes;

(11) Human factors;

(12) Aeronautical decision making and judgment; and

(13) Crew resource management to include crew communication and coordination.
§ 61.157 Flight proficiency.
top

(a) General. (1) The practical test for an airline transport pilot certificate is given for—

(i) An airplane category and single-engine class rating;

(ii) An airplane category and multiengine class rating;

(iii) A rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating;

(iv) A powered-lift category rating; and

(v) An aircraft type rating for the category and class ratings listed in paragraphs (a)(1)(i) through (a)(1)(iv) of this section.

(2) A person who is applying for an airline transport pilot practical test must meet—

(i) The eligibility requirements of §61.153 of this part; and

(ii) The aeronautical knowledge and aeronautical experience requirements of this subpart that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought.

(B) Aircraft type rating. Except as provided in paragraph © of this section, a person who is applying for an aircraft type rating to be added to an airline transport pilot certificate:

(1) Must receive and log ground and flight training from an authorized instructor on the areas of operation in this section that apply to the aircraft type rating sought;

(2) Must receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor certifying that the applicant completed the training on the areas of operation listed in paragraph (e) of this section that apply to the aircraft type rating sought; and

(3) Must perform the practical test in actual or simulated instrument conditions, unless the aircraft's type certificate makes the aircraft incapable of operating under instrument flight rules. If the practical test cannot be accomplished for this reason, the person may obtain a type rating limited to “VFR only.†The “VFR only†limitation may be removed for that aircraft type when the person passes the practical test in actual or simulated instrument conditions.

© Exceptions. A person who is applying for an aircraft type rating to be added to an airline transport pilot certificate or an aircraft type rating concurrently with an airline transport pilot certificate, and who is an employee of a certificate holder operating under part 121 or 135 of this chapter or of a fractional ownership program manager operating under subpart K of part 91 of this chapter, need not comply with the requirements of paragraph (B) of this section if the applicant presents a training record that shows satisfactory completion of that certificate holder's or program manager's approved pilot-in-command training program for the aircraft type rating sought.

(d) Upgrading type ratings. Any type rating(s) on the pilot certificate of an applicant who successfully completes an airline transport pilot practical test shall be included on the airline transport pilot certificate with the privileges and limitations of the airline transport pilot certificate, provided the applicant passes the practical test in the same category and class of aircraft for which the applicant holds the type rating(s). However, if a type rating for that category and class of aircraft on the superseded pilot certificate is limited to VFR, that limitation shall be carried forward to the person's airline transport pilot certificate level.

(e) Areas of operation. (1) For an airplane category—single-engine class rating:

(i) Preflight preparation;

(ii) Preflight procedures;

(iii) Takeoff and departure phase;

(iv) In-flight maneuvers;

(v) Instrument procedures;

(vi) Landings and approaches to landings;

(vii) Normal and abnormal procedures;

(viii) Emergency procedures; and

(ix) Postflight procedures.

(2) For an airplane category—multiengine class rating:

(i) Preflight preparation;

(ii) Preflight procedures;

(iii) Takeoff and departure phase;

(iv) In-flight maneuvers;

(v) Instrument procedures;

(vi) Landings and approaches to landings;

(vii) Normal and abnormal procedures;

(viii) Emergency procedures; and

(ix) Postflight procedures.

(3) For a powered-lift category rating:

(i) Preflight preparation;

(ii) Preflight procedures;

(iii) Takeoff and departure phase;

(iv) In-flight maneuvers;

(v) Instrument procedures;

(vi) Landings and approaches to landings;

(vii) Normal and abnormal procedures;

(viii) Emergency procedures; and

(ix) Postflight procedures.

(4) For a rotorcraft category—helicopter class rating:

(i) Preflight preparation;

(ii) Preflight procedures;

(iii) Takeoff and departure phase;

(iv) In-flight maneuvers;

(v) Instrument procedures;

(vi) Landings and approaches to landings;

(vii) Normal and abnormal procedures;

(viii) Emergency procedures; and

(ix) Postflight procedures.

(f) Proficiency and competency checks conducted under part 121, part 135, or subpart K of part 91. (1) Successful completion of any of the following checks satisfy the requirements of this section for the appropriate aircraft rating:

(i) A proficiency check under §121.441 of this chapter.

(ii) Both a competency check under §135.293 of this chapter and a pilot-in-command instrument proficiency check under §135.297 of this chapter.

(iii) Both a competency check under §91.1065 of this chapter and a pilot-in-command instrument proficiency check under §91.1069 of this chapter.

(2) The checks specified in paragraph (f)(1) of this section must be conducted by an authorized designated pilot examiner or FAA aviation safety inspector.

(g) Use of a flight simulator or flight training device for an airplane rating. If a flight simulator or flight training device is used for accomplishing all of the training and the required practical test for an airplane transport pilot certificate with an airplane category, class, and type rating, if applicable, the applicant, flight simulator, and flight training device are subject to the following requirements:

(1) The flight simulator and flight training device must represent that airplane type if the rating involves a type rating in an airplane, or is representative of an airplane if the applicant is only seeking an airplane class rating and does not require a type rating.

(2) The flight simulator and flight training device must be used in accordance with an approved course at a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

(3) All training and testing (except preflight inspection) must be accomplished by the applicant to receive an airplane class rating and type rating, if applicable, without limitations and—

(i) The flight simulator must be qualified and approved as Level C or Level D; and

(ii) The applicant must meet the aeronautical experience requirements of §61.159 of this part and at least one of the following—

(A) Hold a type rating for a turbojet airplane of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought, or have been designated by a military service as a pilot in command of an airplane of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought, if a turbojet type rating is sought;

(B) Hold a type rating for a turbopropeller airplane of the same class as the airplane for which the type rating is sought, or have been appointed by a military service as a pilot in command of an airplane of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought, if a turbopropeller airplane type rating is sought;

© Have at least 2,000 hours of flight time, of which 500 hours must be in turbine-powered airplanes of the same class as the airplane for which the type rating is sought;

(D) Have at least 500 hours of flight time in the same type of airplane as the airplane for which the type rating is sought; or

(E) Have at least 1,000 hours of flight time in at least two different airplanes requiring a type rating.

(4) Subject to the limitation of paragraph (g)(5) of this section, an applicant who does not meet the requirements of paragraph (g)(3) of this section may complete all training and testing (except for preflight inspection) for an additional rating if—

(i) The flight simulator is qualified and approved as Level C or Level D; and

(ii) The applicant meets the aeronautical experience requirements of §61.159 of this part and at least one of the following—

(A) Holds a type rating in a propeller-driven airplane if a type rating in a turbojet airplane is sought, or holds a type rating in a turbojet airplane if a type rating in a propeller-driven airplane is sought;

(B) Since the beginning of the 12th calendar month before the month in which the applicant completes the practical test for the additional rating, has logged—

(1) At least 100 hours of flight time in airplanes in the same class as the airplane for which the type rating is sought and which requires a type rating; and

(2) At least 25 hours of flight time in airplanes of the same type for which the type rating is sought.

(5) An applicant meeting only the requirements of paragraph (g)(4)(ii)(A) and (B) of this section will be issued an additional rating, or an airline transport pilot certificate with an added rating, as applicable, with a limitation. The limitation shall state: “This certificate is subject to pilot-in-command limitations for the additional rating.â€

(6) An applicant who has been issued a certificate with the limitation specified in paragraph (g)(5) of this section—

(i) May not act as pilot in command of the aircraft for which an additional rating was obtained under the provisions of this section until the limitation is removed from the certificate; and

(ii) May have the limitation removed by accomplishing 15 hours of supervised operating experience as pilot in command under the supervision of a qualified and current pilot in command, in the seat normally occupied by the pilot in command, in an airplane of the same type for which the limitation applies.

(7) An applicant who does not meet the requirements of paragraph (g)(3)(ii)(A) through (E) or (g)(4)(ii)(A) and (B) of this section may be issued an airline transport pilot certificate or an additional rating to that pilot certificate after successful completion of one of the following requirements—

(i) An approved course at a part 142 training center that includes all training and testing for that certificate or rating, followed by training and testing on the following tasks, which must be successfully completed on a static airplane or in flight, as appropriate—

(A) Preflight inspection;

(B) Normal takeoff;

© Normal ILS approach;

(D) Missed approach; and

(E) Normal landing.

(ii) An approved course at a part 142 training center that complies with paragraphs (g)(8) and (g)(9) of this section and includes all training and testing for a certificate or rating.

(8) An applicant meeting only the requirements of paragraph (g)(7)(ii) of this section will be issued an additional rating or an airline transport pilot certificate with an additional rating, as applicable, with a limitation. The limitation shall state: “This certificate is subject to pilot-in-command limitations for the additional rating.â€

(9) An applicant issued a pilot certificate with the limitation specified in paragraph (g)(8) of this section—

(i) May not act as pilot in command of the aircraft for which an additional rating was obtained under the provisions of this section until the limitation is removed from the certificate; and

(ii) May have the limitation removed by accomplishing 25 hours of supervised operating experience as pilot in command under the supervision of a qualified and current pilot in command, in the seat normally occupied by the pilot in command, in an airplane of the same type for which the limitation applies.

Note 2 of the "simple" requirements: 23 years of age and 2000 hours of flight experience.

Jim

 

[JAMAKE1]

DC Flyer:

I thought your first question was a good one. Up until recently I was a flight attendant. I performed my job with a great deal of pride and was trained in not only emergency procedures, but first aid, CPR, and AED procedures. I was also a chief purser, where I served as my airline's primary public relations ambassador on the aircraft. I was responsible for leading my crew and passengers in the event of an emergency, ensuring that the inflight service was performed to my airline's service standards, responding to inflight medical emergencies, and ensuring that my airline's top tier domestic and international very frequent travellers' expectations were met while inflight. I conducted myself as a true service professional and felt that the skills I brought to the position were worth about $45,000 per year. Although the job description did not require academic credentials, it did require a unique psychological and emotional skill set that not every one possesses. At the end of the day, it didn't really matter what I thought I was worth. The consumer has spoken and market conditions have shifted and those of us who have put some time into this profession are now faced with gutted pensions, an erosion of hard-fought work rules, and our compensation being cut 30-50%. Unfortunately for us, we are worth only what the market will bear. I hope I have finally answered your question.

 

[deano]

DCFlyer,

Here's what the FAR's have to say about getting an ATP (Airline Transport Pilot certificate), which is pretty much required to get an airline job.



Jim

[post="233656"][/post]​

YES

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Hey Jim, don't confuse DCFlyer with the facts. LOL