USAirways pilots labor thread 7/23-7-29

[flyer63]

I would say YES the Majority and that is all that count. Are willing to wait as long as it takes to not see the NIC.

YOu talk about LOA 93 like it is a contract much worse off than the current west contract. It's worse but the west is no Oasis.

WE go on to the end on this unless of course the West would like to talk about fences now.

Unlikely

 

[captainJack]

Using your argument all news outlets could never be biased.

That statement, out of the starting gates, seems pretty naive all by itself. Equating "news" to facts might lead you to believe that Dewey had won the election.

Your further argument maintains a similar fiction, the confusion of observation vs fact.

No obtuseness, just reasonable rigor in the interest of avoiding confusion. Perhaps when you understand the difference, we can continue.

 

[cleardirect]

ALPA and the East MEC accepted binding arbitration, not East rank and file and not USAPA. That’s what this lawsuit is all about. Is binding really binding or as West Merger attorney put it, “in actuality the proposed pilot seniority list….that ALPA will adopt as its bargaining position to be presented to the Company, but which (like a union bargaining position in any matter) the Company is not required to accept."

I think HP-FA put to rest the argument that it was not binding on east rank and file. As it turns out yes it is binding. As we have an injunction in place today as evidence.

Even accepting your premise as true. Which I don’t. Even if Freund had said that it was only proposal. The company HAS ACCEPTED it. So it is no longer a proposal. It is the list. We have gone over this many times. Continually bringing up outdated arguments is a waste of time. Move on.

Maybe you still do not believe that the company has accepted the list. Despite sworn testimony by Heminway and statements to the court by the company attorney.

 

[700UW]

Mega,

You elected your LEC and MEC, and by that you give them power of attorney and they represent you, you might not have agreed to the arbitration personally, but you elected the reps who did and agreed to the bylaws and policies of ALPA by being a member, voting and paying dues.

Bottom line is you all didnt like the award so you will blame anyone except yourselves for letting it happen and its too late to change it, havent you all learned that changing unions doesnt vacate the arbitration.

 

[USA320Pilot]

In the fall of 2007 I had two 5-hour one on one conversations with former USAPA president Stephen Bradford regarding his ideas on how a new union should proceed. Bradford is an intelligent individual that I do not hold in the same class as ALPA’s former RC4/5 or USAPA’s hardliners who have been in control of every major failure the East pilot group has sustained.

Bradford told me that USAPA members would pay dues about 25% less than ALPA, union leaders would be volunteers and not on the gravy train, USAPA would be democratic, there would be no “roll call†provision, there would be nobody associated with the RC4 as a USAPA leader, there would be a professional negotiating team, there would be no abuse of union dues, BPR meetings would use webcams for accountability, and of course he recited case law on why DOH could be the only method legally permitted to integrate two pilot groups.

I believed Bradford because I thought he was genuine, but during the election process two major events occurred that changed my support from USAPA to ALPA.

First, the RC4/5 MEC members and other hardliners stopped attending ALPA meetings and instead were attending USAPA organizing events. I believe it is wrong to hold an office of a union and then use union resources as a means to elect another union. Where is the integrity in that? Then I found out that PHL F/O Rep. Dave Ciabattoni was writing USAPA’s C&BL’s and Uniform Operating Manual (UOM), which is one of the reasons ALPA removed him from office. Ciabattoni pledged his allegiance to ALPA during the Representation Campaign, but behind the scenes was working to build USAPA. I new this was going to be trouble, big trouble, because of the hardliners past performance in ALPA.

Next, the ACPC was formed that provided information by people I respect that was anti-USAPA for valid reasons with the ACPC providing truthful, factual information. Then ALPA attorney Mike Abram wrote letters to the pilot on the pending legal problems USAPA would inherit if USAPA was successful in winning the election because the West pilots could bring a DFR lawsuit against the BPR and the West would be successful. Guess what? Abram was dead-on accurate again!

With this said, let me point out that I believe the Nicolau Award is wrong for two reasons. One, I believe in DOH as the bedrock of airline seniority. It is the merger policy of every other US Airways labor group and is how both the East and West pilot groups administer their contracts. And, Joe Monda, the lowest East seniority pilot at the date of the merger is now junior to Dave Odell. At the time of the merger Odell had 3 months seniority, was on probation with America West, and an ALPA apprentice member. On the other hand Joe had 17 years and 3 months uninterrupted US Airways service. Which pilot contributed more to the success of the combined business entity? Joe or Dave.

However, DOH did not exist in ALPA MeRger Policy and I believe it is wrong to renege on a promise to not accept a final and binding arbitration award the parties agree to.

Now back to the NMB’s election…During the Representation campaign when it became clear USAPA was going to be run by people I believe are dishonest who lack character (the old RC4/5 hardliner group) and with the ACPC’s/Mike Abram’s information I shifted my support back to ALPA. Why? I thought if the two MEC’s would remain in place there would eventually be a settlement between the East and West pilot groups that would mitigate the Nicolau Award, permit a new join Pilot and F/A contract, and permit all of US Airways’ stakeholders to constructively move forward.

However, the East pilots did not allow this to happen and the East instead voted for USAPA in an effort to have the majority impose their will on the minority, which I believe is wrong.

Now lets fast forward to today. USAPA has broken most of their campaign promises. USAPA members now pay more in dues and assessments than any airline union in the entire U.S., union leaders voted them self a huge pay raise without first informing the membership or permitting the membership to vote on this issue (which may be a violation of DOL labor), USAPA is not democratic (in fact just last week the BPR attempted to hide the fact that they leased new vehicles for union officials to use and the members did not vote on this abuse), the “roll call†provision was re-inserted back into the C&BLs following the election, the BPR and Key Committees are only made up of people loyal to the former RC4/5, outstanding former ALPA R&I officials who have done fantastic work on behalf of the pilots are not permitted to do union work even though pilots are suffering with R&I/LTD problems, there is not a real professional negotiating team (Seham and Peterson were fired by the American Airlines pilot union APA and they now represent USAP), there is abuse of union dues, there has not been one BPR meeting that used webcams for accountability, and now USAPA has been found guilty of DFR with virtually no chance of an appellate victory. During this time frame thousands of US Airways pilots are being damaged by the union in lost wages, no real chance of an appellate victory, and the company being hurt by USAPA by not being able to fully integrate.

If you click here, here, and here you can read 3 of many reasons on why I believe USAPA is harming all US Airways pilots, both from the East and the West; along with thousands of other US Airways employees and other stakeholders.

I made a mistake in initially supporting USAPA, but I learned from my mistake and I am moving forward. USAPA needs to be removed from the property and I strongly believe an effort to do that will occur in the not-too-distant future when permitted by federal law.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[hp_fa]

What does ACPC stand for?

 

[Elevation]

We are all waiting for the east underground to come out. Who will step and lead them to a respectful place, morally and financially?

 

[captainJack]

Bradford is an intelligent individual that I do not hold in the same class as ALPA’s former RC4/5 or USAPA’s hardliners who have been in control of every major failure the East pilot group has sustained.

Wow. There is so much wrong with your post. Where would one begin?

Any union that demands a loyalty oath has forfeit the right to exist. That was a major problem with ALPA National, trying to control committees not under their authority and demanding a "loyalty oath" of properly elected representatives, individuals who embraced ALPA's constitution and By Laws but were improperly constrained from attending and researching competing organizations.

Placing PHL into trusteeship because the representatives exhibited curiosity lost ALPA. You have already lost everything if you feel you need a loyalty oath. It is like "demanding respect" in the airplane. Those who feel they must, have lost the war.

and, you still do not understand what a "roll call vote" is about. It is the purest form of representational democracy possible. I think you are referencing the LOA 93 TA, replete with blank pages (blank checks), that the weak willed were trying to send out for a vote in a grossly premature manner. A group who fell victim to the 1113 argument and subsequently revealed that they knew nothing about 1113, accepting the company and certain MEC member's propaganda without question. Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed and the pilots avoided further concessions, all the while improving what some tout as a "finished product" to the tune of $5 million per year, at least.

You may not like people involved on a personal level but it may reveal a character flaw in yourself if you cannot work with them.

 

[captainJack]

We are all waiting for the east underground to come out. Who will step and lead them to a respectful place, morally and financially?

You are suggesting a "minority leader" representing maybe 200 tell a majority (3200) how to accept a paltry 3% raise, cede longevity and otherwise denigrate the pilot profession?

vs a 22%++ raise, keeping the lump sums to ourselves and rest on the principle that longevity leads to seniority?

 

[USA320Pilot]

USAPA Legal Update - July 29, 2009

The appeal process has begun!

On July 23, USAPA attorneys filed an appeal with the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, located in San Francisco, Calif., regarding the Addington Duty of Fair Representation (DFR) trial and Judge Wake’s injunctive order.

The partial judgment that followed the jury trial on liability, as well as the injunction, are now before the Ninth Circuit, effectively divesting the District Court in Phoenix (Judge Wake) from any further jurisdiction on these orders we are appealing.

We have received a Time Schedule Order from the Ninth Circuit Court and are pleased by the promptness with which the Circuit Court is acting on our appeal. Our first written brief is due November 9, 2009. Notwithstanding the present schedule, we will file a motion to expedite the appeal, including adjusting the existing calendar consistent with USAPA's intent to prosecute the appeal as fast as the Court of Appeals will allow.

USAPA has also filed a motion to stay (suspend) the injunction — and all further proceedings at the District Court. If the stay is granted, enforcement of the injunction would be suspended pending resolution by the Ninth Circuit. If the stay is not granted at the District Court level, it may then be heard by the Court of Appeals.

We are extremely confident in our position on appeal as supported by case law. To provide you additional understanding of our legal position, we are introducing a new series this week called “What the Cases Really Say,â€￾ in which we will cite examples of case law that substantiate the foundation of our appeal.

By stepping away from Judge Wake's courtroom into the higher federal appellate courts, USAPA will continue to exercise our legal options to restore the rights of the union — fairly elected and acting on all members' behalf — to bargain freely within what the U.S. Supreme Court and the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals have both recognized is the "wide range of reasonableness [which] must be allowed a statutory bargaining representative in serving the unit it represents.â€￾

 

[USA320Pilot]

ACPC stands for ALPA Concerned Pilots Committee. ACPC was a group of pilots concerned about USAPA and the upstart union's ability to keep its campaign promises. The ACPC lobbied for ALPA to remain the collecitve bargaining agent for US Airways' pilots.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Al Legheny]

USA320 Pilot
Veteran


Group: Registered Member
Posts: 6,448
Joined: 18-May 03
Member No.: 2,293



…If you click here, (1)… here (2), and here (3) you can read 3 of many reasons on why I believe USAPA is harming all US Airways pilots, both from the East and the West; along with thousands of other US Airways employees and other stakeholders.

I made a mistake in initially supporting USAPA, but I learned from my mistake and I am moving forward. USAPA needs to be removed from the property and I strongly believe an effort to do that will occur in the not-too-distant future when permitted by federal law.

Regards,

USA32 pilot



In rebuttal to the post by USA320 Pilot.

I cannot comment on the body of the post as I don’t know the players. I can however review the material that A320 Pilot posts as a reference and comment on that.

• here(1) A document from Unbiased Facts.org

The Salamat Report Extract concludes 80 out of 136 East First Officers from combined seniority numbers 4409 to 4768 were never going to upgrade to Narrowbody Captain pre-merger or that the Nicolau award had no effect on their career expectation.

This statement misses a most salient point of the Nicolau award, not the upgrades, but the loss of jobs. As a result of the current economic crisis the company may want to downsize more. The Transition Agreement prevents that from happening. When a contract is signed and these protections disappear under the Nicolau award East pilots who have already paid for the mistakes of past managements by being furloughed will be furloughed again. East pilots will pay for a 38% decrease in PHX to Mexico flying as stated in a recent Sand Castle video. East pilots will pay for the closing of Las Vegas and a further reduction in flying in Phoenix due to low yields. East pilots will pay for managements’ mistakes in managing America West.

East pilots have already paid and they don’t want to pay more. There are those who would simply take a small raise and the Nicolau award, and I am talking about East pilots here, and do it on the backs of those who now display 20 year pins on their uniforms.

The lowest seniority East active pilot when the merger was announced with uninterrupted continuous service is Joe Monda, combined seniority number 4768. The Salamat Report concluded that premerger Monda would never upgrade to Narrowbody Captain and would retire at age 60 as a First Officer and the Nicolau Award did not effect his pre-merger Narrowbody Upgrade Career Expectation.

Joe Monda responded to a Phoenix news reporter several months ago and simply stated†I just want to keep my job and retire†Joe is almost 60. Joe stated he didn’t want anyone else’s job he just wanted to keep his. Joe now has over 20 years of continuous service without ever being furloughed. You can read it on the USAPA web site seniority list. Why should he lose his job when someone who was hired 10 months prior to the merger and had never paid any ALPA dues go senior to him?

Leonidas Update - May 8, 2009
"Captain (Jack) Stephan did recall a conversation he had with company negotiators that the company would be amenable to a 7-10% pay increase (beyond the Kirby Proposal) for everyone in order to get a joint contract."

That was during ALPA negotiations in 2005 to mid 2007. After sometime in the summer of 2007 ALPA broke off negotiations. Since that time we have had $140+ oil, and a financial meltdown. Do you still think that deal is on the table??

here (2) another document by UnbiasedFacts.org

How Joint Negotiations - Spring 2007
In early 2007 US Airways provided the ALPA Joint Negotiating Committee (JNC) their joint contract pay rate increase opening offer. This was called the Kirby Proposal and provided East pilots a 17% and West pilots a 3% pay raise along with the same percent increase for DC Plan retirement contributions.





Leonidas Update - May 8, 2009
"Captain (Jack) Stephan did recall a conversation he had with company negotiators that the company would be amenable to a 7-10% pay increase (beyond the Kirby Proposal) for everyone in order to get a joint contract."

• That was then and this is now. What has happened in between is very significant. The company has not moved off the Kirby proposal. JetBlue will get better than the Kirby proposal. Alaska will have $170 for narrow body captains and a defined benefit pension.

• No other major airline will operate with a 99 hour pay cap with a 108 hour override. That is simply ridiculous.***

• Reduce vacation in June July, August and December to 3.5% - The NAC says. (If you liked the 2009 vacation award then you’re going to love this)

• Percentage of 4-day trips / 40% max by equipment type only (The Company admits that this could produce up to 100% 4-day trips in 1 or more bases as long as the 40% equipment type maximum is not exceeded

• Reduced Rest - The Association and the Company shall meet and agree which cities are not suitable for reduced rest. If the parties are unable to agree which cities are suitable for reduced rest then Vice President of Flight Operations will make the final determination

• *** The scheduling issue is so important and contentious that USAPA worked in close concert with AFA president Mike Flores on company proposals that would have an effect on all East flight crews including Flight Attendants. The East me-too clause could work to cause the East F/A’s to accept the scheduling contract sections. For flight Attendants Seniority = Schedule. Change scheduling and you change your life.

Here is what was found on the AFA website…

Dear Members,
• COUNCIL 66 MEC PRESIDENT AND MEC SECRETARY/TREASURER FOUND GUILTY
• Accessing The Hub
• AFA Local Numbers
Dear Members,
AFA HEARING BOARD RENDERS DECISION - COUNCIL 66 MEC PRESIDENT AND MEC SECRETARY/TREASURER FOUND GUILTY

This week the AFA Hearing Board rendered their decision related to the charges filed against Council 66 MEC President, Lisa LeCarre and Council 66 MEC Secretary/Treasurer, Jeff Albers.

The Hearing Board is comprised of three members of our peers. The Hearing Board found Ms. LeCarre and Mr. Albers guilty of violating Article X.1.(j):

j. Doing any act contrary to the best interests of the Union or its members.
The Hearing Boards Decision and Order is copied below:

Decision and Order of the Hearing Board
….Based upon the facts presented to the Hearing Board, the Board finds that LeCarre and Albers knowingly copied the confidential USAPA proposal that was kept in Flores' suitcase. In doing so they deliberately violated the explicit conditions established by USAPA for its use by the JNT. Though Albers and LeCarre deny that the document was removed from Flores' bag, the evidence adduced at the hearing supports a different conclusion.
….To be clear, the Hearing Board does find that LeCarre and Albers violated Article X.1. (j) of the AFA C&B by removing the USAPA proposal from Flores' suitcase without permission and making copies. Those actions were clearly, "contrary to the best interest of the Union and its members, and negatively impacted the progress of negotiations. The Board is particularly disturbed by the complete lack of remorse shown by LeCarre and Albers at the hearing. Even though Albers admitted that he lied to Flores at their March 11 meeting, Albers insists that he would copy the proposal again for the "best interests" of the West flight attendants. LeCarre also failed to acknowledge any wrongdoing and told the Board that she would do it again since she believes the East members of the JNT would have done the same thing if they had been in their position.

.

Here(3) - Another Document from UnbiasedFacts.org

Now we have Mr. Parker desiring a merger with a carrier bigger than us, and Mr. Seham making a new legal precedent on our behalf. Let’s say just for that sake of the exercise that we merge with AMR. Since we are in two different unions, federal law guarantees us an arbitration to decide a fair and equitable seniority list. That is completed, and it doesn’t matter for this discussion how it comes out. I hope by now the light is beginning to come on for everyone what happens next.

For those who want it spelled out for them, here we go. At some point, the AMR pilots, the majority, decide to form a new union. Since they are in fact the bigger group, a new union of their choosing is voted onto the property. With this new union and Mr. Seham’s brilliant legal work, they have the right to bargain for anything they want, including a new list. How long will it take them to staple the LCC pilots to the bottom of the list? I may be wrong but it is sure what I would do if I were on the other side of such a merger.

What was denied from being brought into evidence in the Addington litigation was that the United State Supreme Court and other appeals courts have held that Date of Hire seniority is in the “best interest of labor as a wholeâ€. Motions in limine and instructions to the jury prevented this fact from being presented at trial. The Ninth Circuit will hear all these details on appeal.

As to what APA can do, it can alter seniority but that alteration must be in the interest of the bargaining unit as a whole. Undoing a DOH list would require a very good reason if it is already recognized as a standard in the industry and declared to be in the best interests of labor as a whole.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Meanwhile, due to labor fighting US Airways' pilots and flight attendants remain some of the lowest or the lowest paid legacy carrier employees in the entire industry while USAPA officials granted them self a huge pay raise, not available to the rank-and-file, which was not voted on or even presented to the membership by the new so-called democratic pilots union.

Now the process will drag on with a very low chance of the Ninth Circuit Court changing the AZ District Court's decision. Click here to see the odds of USAPA winning an appeal.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Hawkhunter]

Meanwhile, due to labor fighting US Airways' pilots and flight attendants remain some of the lowest or the lowest paid legacy carrier employees in the entire industry while USAPA officials granted them self a huge pay raise, not available to the rank-and-file, which was not voted on or even presented to the membership by the new so-called democratic pilots union.

Now the process will drag on with a very low chance of the Ninth Circuit Court changing the AZ District Court's decision. Click here to see the odds of USAPA winning an appeal.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Yawn

 

[Elevation]

while USAPA officials granted them self a huge pay raise, not available to the rank-and-file, which was not voted on or even presented to the membership by the new so-called democratic pilots union.

Dear members,

"qu'ils mangent de la brioche"

Sincerely,
Mike "Antoinette" Cleary