US Pilots' Labor Thread 9/4 to 9/17--STAY ON TOPIC

[Metroyet]

The us plots leadership cut a deal with US management to keep flying over the IAM M&R Picket line during Oct of 92. During the 30 day cooling off period we we subject to much harassment buy ALPA, some AFA members, not many and a lot of non-union agents.

ALPA mad a deal to get all their pilots paid as long as they flew over our picket line, all ther 37-200, all dc9-md80 and f28 and f100 were grounded but all pilots got paid cause ALPA leadership ensured the pilots would cross the picket lines, as least AFA had to be ordered back to work by a judge and then won later on in arbitration.

You're not suggesting that the East Pilot group leadership is actually being "disingenuous" when they claim to support a labor group are you?

Never. Not from this most democratic of organizations.

 

[Megasnoop]

Hope not to be overly gross on this. Support for a small group like Amerijet is long overdue. Having to use a common bucket for physiologic needs in a 727 is over the top. Maybe in a single-pilot Metro-liner, but not a T-category jet. This male/female sharing the bucket was over the top, too. Sometimes I think we forget where we came from before here. Not sure about the need to constantly question motives on an issue that for the grace of God, any of us could be there too.

The us plots leadership cut a deal with US management to keep flying over the IAM M&R Picket line during Oct of 92. During the 30 day cooling off period we we subject to much harassment buy ALPA, some AFA members, not many and a lot of non-union agents.

ALPA mad a deal to get all their pilots paid as long as they flew over our picket line, all ther 37-200, all dc9-md80 and f28 and f100 were grounded but all pilots got paid cause ALPA leadership ensured the pilots would cross the picket lines, as least AFA had to be ordered back to work by a judge and then won later on in arbitration.

To be accurate, ALPA Nat'l cut the deal, not the MEC. Typical ALPA. They did it with other AFL-CIO unions. TWA pilots crossed their FA picket lines in 1986. Not part of ALPA, but AMR pilots crossed their FA lines in the late 90s. Most EAL pilots honored the IAM picket lines in 1988. We know how that turned out.

 

[Hawkhunter]

You're not suggesting that the East Pilot group leadership is actually being "disingenuous" when they claim to support a labor group are you?

Never. Not from this most democratic of organizations.

The leadership was ALPA at the time.

 

[cleardirect]

USAPA will not listen to anything they don't want to hear. Anything that is not lockstep with the majority is to be disregarded, if not ignored completely. Even from MIGS from the East.

After all the management teams the East has suffered since the PSA-PI-USAir-AWA mergers, I consider the current CEO just as "authoritative" as his predecessors.

Hey, he's YOUR guy. The airline is being managed at it's highest levels by former Amerca West managers. If he says East won't get the snapbacks......... I guess that's why there exists a grievance process. And if he says West is not losing flying to the East, and you believe otherwise............GRIEVE IT TOO!

Scope Monitoring Committee Update
September 7, 2009
As of the second quarter, the Company is in compliance with both the minimum fleet and block hours, despite a differing opinion on how minimum block hours should be calculated as set forth under the Transition Agreement. This difference of opinion is the basis of TA grievance 10.

It is noteworthy that the Company is approaching the minimum block hour limit on the West side using the Company’s method of a “rolling average,â€￾ ending the second quarter with a 12-month look back of .05 hours above baseline.

As of this update, we do not have an award from Arbitrator Bloch on Transition Agreement Grievances 8 (large SJ) or 10 (daily utilization), which would provide guidance for the proper calculation.

Read an update. The grievances were filed almost a year ago. The company has been in violation since September 2008. that is how long it takes for a grievance to be decided. (snap back decision sometime next summer)

Very clearly the T/A says a per month utilization(unlike no language on snap back). The company says it is a rolling year. So even using the companies defense they are about to violate the T/A. If USAPA can manage to win this it will be huge for the west pilots. Since the east has been above the min.

Question to ask. Where did all of the block hours for the 190’s come from? There are not on the min fleet or min block hours. Why are there several east airplanes a day in PHX. What block hours are those airplanes flying?

 

[nycbusdriver]

The us plots leadership cut a deal with US management to keep flying over the IAM M&R Picket line during Oct of 92. During the 30 day cooling off period we we subject to much harassment buy ALPA, some AFA members, not many and a lot of non-union agents.

ALPA mad a deal to get all their pilots paid as long as they flew over our picket line, all ther 37-200, all dc9-md80 and f28 and f100 were grounded but all pilots got paid cause ALPA leadership ensured the pilots would cross the picket lines, as least AFA had to be ordered back to work by a judge and then won later on in arbitration.

If I recall, the company was in financial distress (under the dubious "leadership" of Seth Schofield) and had asked all the unions to agree to temporary give backs. ALPA stepped up to the plate and did so to keep the company solvent. The IAM refused, and went on strike. The AFA was still in talks, and decided to stage an illegal secondary boycott over the IAM picket lines. ALPA had done their part and saw the IAM as recalcitrant (which they were.) The AFA walkout was totally ineffective once the rank and file found out that they wouldn't be paid if they honored the picket lines and didn't show up for work. Most flight attendants crossed and worked, too. It was impossible to keep all fleets functional since required maintenance had to be done by supervisors, so a few of the fleets were grounded by the company as a stop-gap measure to keep the other fleets flying. ALPA, which had made the sacrifices asked of them, were assured that their pilots would be paid if they kept the airline flying. They did. The IAM was, and is, a stubborn bunch and were seen (after the EAL mess) as needing their noses rubbed in it.

In the aftermath, the IAM basically won their demands, while the pilots worked concessionary pay for a short time. The pilots were pissed that management gave in to the IAM. Later, as promised, the pilots were later made whole with the return of every penny they made in concessions with interest.

I am always willing to honor an honorable picket line. The IAM didn't want to play, so the pilots basically gave a figurative one-finger salute to the IAM and went to work.

 

[john john]

Sounds like IAM took ALPA to school

 

[Metroyet]

I am always willing to honor an honorable picket line... so the pilots basically gave a figurative one-finger salute...and went to work.

"Honorable Picket Line"? So by extrapolation can I assume there is such a thing as a "Dishonorable" picket line?

So if USAPA get's it's ultimate fantasy fulfilled, and is released to strike, (years away at best) and the West pilots decide for themselves that their strike is DIS-honorable. Can I assume you'd support the West giving USAPA the "one finger salute" as you put it and simply go to work?

You just delineated a difference between a good strike and a bad strike. Moreover, you appear to be comfortable being the sole decision maker as to which strike is good or bad.

I'm sure you wouldn't want to strip that freedom from West Pilots would you...?

 

[john john]

had asked all the unions to agree to temporary give backs. ALPA stepped up to the plate and did so to keep the company solvent. ALPA, which had made the sacrifices asked of them, were assured that their pilots would be paid if they kept the airline flying. . The pilots were pissed that management gave in to the IAM. Later, as promised, the pilots were later made whole with the return of every penny they made in concessions with interest.

And the customer service and ramp agents work with the concessionary pay work rules and benefits for 7 years because ALPA and AFA and IAM were “recalcitrantâ€￾

 

[Metroyet]

The leadership was ALPA at the time.

Yeah, I know. However, East pilots are East pilots...regardless what their name of the day is.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Can I assume you'd support the West giving USAPA the "one finger salute" as you put it...

And how would we on the east see the difference from what the west does now?

Any self-help will be of the AFA-trademarked CHAOS-type, anyway. It will take ZERO west participation for it to be effective. Beside, we expect that the west will cross a USAPA picket line. Makes no difference in the outcome. USAPA has gotten along quite well thus far with no west support. If you guys want to make yourselves irrelevant, go for it.

 

[Metroyet]

And how would we on the east see the difference from what the west does now?

Any self-help will be of the AFA-trademarked CHAOS-type, anyway. It will take ZERO west participation for it to be effective. Beside, we expect that the west will cross a USAPA picket line. Makes no difference in the outcome. USAPA has gotten along quite well thus far with no west support. If you guys want to make yourselves irrelevant, go for it.

CHAOS. Sure. You bet.

How far away are you from Section 6?
Have you entered Fed. Mediation under Section 6?

Does the USAPA Ministry of Information have ANY IDEA what it takes to get released for self help?

Does the USAPA Ministry of Information have ANY IDEA how LONG that takes?

Cleary is literally YEARS away from making such a confident statement...and even then it's a total crap shoot.

When was the last time a pilot group, of any discernible size, allowed to enter self help in this country? 1998? Frankly, I can't remember.

USAPA promoting the idea that self help is closer than Doug Parker would like to admit it a flat out lie.

This is just more empty bluster that Cleary, usapa, et.al are now getting famous for. I'm starting to get embarrassed for them...it's like watching a puppy act all tough to the big dog while it's sitting between it's owners feet confident that it will never have to actually back up the bark with the bite.

Also, you're saying it's now the West that are hell bent on "making themselves irrelevant"?

We all know USAPAs ENTIRE REASON FOR EXISTENCE is to force the West into irrelevance.

How's that been workin' out for you anyway. OH! nevermind. I just remembered. Guilty, DFR.


Also, you never answered my question. Would a USAPA job action be an Honorable one or a Dishonorable one? Because you've announced that you can tell the difference, please enlighten us.

 

[mach92flyr]

And how would we on the east see the difference from what the west does now?

Any self-help will be of the AFA-trademarked CHAOS-type, anyway. It will take ZERO west participation for it to be effective. Beside, we expect that the west will cross a USAPA picket line. Makes no difference in the outcome. USAPA has gotten along quite well thus far with no west support. If you guys want to make yourselves irrelevant, go for it.

JMHO, you should expect Doogie will respond swiftly against any CHAOS action, with immediate terminations. I would think carefully about the cost of trying to recover your job.
I would also expect Parker would attempt to break USAPA by reducing operations and advertising for pilot positions He could then send outside current and qualified 737/320 pilots through mini-school, RJ pilots through full school and West pilots to A-330 and 767 mini or full school (many are typed on some of these aircraft already) prior to any job action.
He could then lock out the East, or offer incentives to cross such as a new seniority list with those crossing getting senior positions. This was effective against the UAL strike of 1985 and most scabs moved directly to the left seat and are now 747 and 777 Captains with less LOS.
I would expect those terminated or refusing to cross would quickly become irrelevant as Parker opens a hiring window. Hawaiian received over 1000 resumes in their recent 3 day window.
A truly effective job action needs the support of all members, not just two thirds.
Offer low rates and customers will readily flock to LCC even if the number of flights was reduced during the three month "re-training" of replacement pilots.
This seems a silly thing for Cleary to spout. I am confident that Doogie and gang are well prepared for this threat.

 

[nycbusdriver]

JMHO, you should expect Doogie will respond swiftly against any CHAOS action, with immediate terminations. I would think carefully about the cost of trying to recover your job.
I would also expect Parker would attempt to break USAPA by reducing operations, advertising for pilot positions and sending RJ pilots through school prior to any job action.
He could then lock out the East, or offer incentives to cross such as a new seniority list with those crossing getting senior positions. This was effective against the UAL strike of 1985 and most scabs are now 747 and 777 Captains with less LOS.
I would expect those terminated or refusing to cross would quickly become irrelevant as Parker opens a hiring window. Hawaiian received over 1000 resumes in their recent 3 day window.
A truly effective job action needs the support of all members, not just two thirds.
Offer low rates and customers will readily flock to LCC even if the number of flights was reduced during the three month "re-training" of replacement pilots.
This seems a silly thing for Cleary to spout. I am confident that Doogie and gang are well prepared for this threat.

If the NMB declares self-help is available as a remedy, federal law prohibits Parker from firing anyone who participates in a union-sponsored job action.

He can't lock out workers and continue to operate. Also against federal law.

Do some study and get back.

 

[Freighterguynow]

What I do know is that there was an arbitration over the growth 757s and the 190s and the West is owed some flying and rather than help us get it, a certain association employed an illegal stategy to try and keep us from collecting on that also.
If I recall the West is owed 200 seats 5+5 in the 757s and 95+95 in the e190.

You get the flying only with a joint contract so what's illegal is your claim to those positions outside ALPA merger policy which is, again, only with a joint contract.

Read the award again - the note all the way at the end - 95/95 is based upon 57
deliveries. We have 25. By the way, we parked 737's and replaced them with E-190's. If you want to work for $95/52 top of scale then here's hoping you get enough of those jets to make your eyes water.

On a more positive note: folks contact your Reps. Lets get the West furloughs a chance to get in good standing and access to health insurance ( if they need it ). We have a BFR meeting soon ....

 

[luvthe9]

CHAOS.
?

Does the USAPA Ministry of Information have ANY IDEA how LONG that takes?

Cleary is literally YEARS away from making such a confident statement...and even then it's a total crap shoot.

The east pilot group does not need Cleary to make any statements one way or the other, everyone knows what needs to be done in the "cash or chaos" program.