US Pilots' Labor Thread 9/4 to 9/17--STAY ON TOPIC

[V1cut]

Quick lesson for Dougweiser:

He can(and will) lose this airline within (1) week under a legal strategy. His choice.

The west can "churn" as they might, but the end will be swift. It would be prudent to not test this theory.

But, nobody said this would be easy.

 

[Megasnoop]

Keep believing the lies. It could get real expensive.

Clear, I am not going to get down into exchanging fighting words, that is counter to what the chat site should be about.

Take a look at the LM-2 filings from your union. Listed under communications is a standard $5000.00 PER MONTH bill. That number has not varied. It does not matter how many calls came in. It is the same price. So there were no “hugeâ€￾ bills.

I believe you misunderstand the LM-2. It covered 7/1/2008 through 3/31/2009. That $5K/month was for communication consultation (hotline stuff) and it didnt start until July 2008, long after the RICO suit stopped the problems. We use a number of other communications/phone/security sources, including GTI, AT&T, WAYPOINT, NUVOX and SYSTEL. Please restate your point if I am misunderstanding you.

One last thing to think about. It any of it was true why did the judge throw it out of court WITH PREJUDICE?

I won't respond or reprint your other accusations, but our RICO was dismissed in Federal court, not state. Your DFR was dismissed in State court, not Federal.

Speaking of LM-2 let’s take a look.

The first LM-2 covering 7/1/2007- 6/30/2008

Listed

Members 2524
Non members 2537
Total 5061

Second LM-2
Covering 7/1/2008- 3/31/2009

Members 3218
Non-member 1535
Total 4753

To start with there were only 1800 west guys. That means that 737 EAST pilots objected to USAPA. We only have a change of 694. That is about the amount of west pilots that joined. So yes the EAST side is stuck at about 2600-2800 members. Sched 13. It appears that it took a long time to crack that 50% majority mark. Just barley at the 2/3 level now. Not a real stellar union when 1/3 wants nothing to do with it.

BTW looks like USAPA needs to update their web site and information that goes to the press. USAPA only represents 4753 not the 5200 listed and quoted so many times. Really closer to 3200 but that is for another time.

Again, I won't reply to accusations. I have come to the conclusion it is not a good use of chat board privledge. The initial dues-paying membership was 2524, 10 weeks into USAPA representation. Its now 3218. Major strides in new members. ALPA and very other union use the term "representing" to include all pilots, furloughed, objectors, in their public relations releases. Not only do we include furloughees and objectors in our PR, we protect them best we can. For furloughees with medical insurance make-up, job info, a separate committee, grievances which we hope will get them (both East and West) back to work and refusal to add to the frulough list with a contract that doesn't protect those still working. LM-2s only report actual working pilots. I hope that explains the difference to you. The increase in membership of 694, especially when considering furloughs of 270, is not membership stalling as you previously said.

The numbers in the 3-31-09 LM-2 were 3218/4753 (active). That's 68% membership and 5 month old data. On 3-31 you had about 1700 active pilots. About 12% were members. So East had about 2900 members of the 3100 east active or 95% of the East active pilots were members. Your 737 East objector number is not correct.

I never said that the depositions did not happen. I asked if they had been read in their entirety or just the biased cliff note version of someone recollection. Never did get an answer to that question.

As I remember, you asked if I had read them. I never said I had or hadn't. I don't know why you are so concerned, since you believe all was legit on the list that ALPA gave to our MC to present to Nic.

Since it was edited I must now correct. The 2800 number is not mine, it came from the usapa web site election results. Are you saying that either usapa lied on the LM-2 or they lied on the election?

I don't get this pre-occuation with "lied." It is a fighting word in your context. I hope the above explanation of PR numbers Vs NMB numbers give you some peace on the issue.

 

[Barrister]

What is the difference between profiteers who willingly take the work that rightfully belongs to another pilot and the east's major expansion into formerly west flying during this period of separate operations? I would think a labor leader such as Cleary would stand up and be outraged to allow such activity.

Can we get some Amerijet pilots to help staff an anti-USAPA picket line in PHX?

Get over it.

 

[Barrister]

But....should LCC merge with CAL, then it'll be fair to put 21 year F/Os on top of those who had the foresight to find greener pastures. . . at least, according to some it would be fair.

Yea and if we merge with Virgin America a 1 year guy will be "senior" to you by NIC's logic .......and you will surely be a standup guy about it........RIGHT.

 

[Barrister]

Keep believing the lies. It could get real expensive.

First point. Point to the complaint where anyone was named or charged with mailing anything.

Second, “ran up huge billsâ€￾

Take a look at the LM-2 filings from your union. Listed under communications is a standard $5000.00 PER MONTH bill. That number has not varied. It does not matter how many calls came in. It is the same price. So there were no “hugeâ€￾ bills.

Care to starting thinking? What was the real reason for a multi million dollar law suit against individual west pilots.

It was not mail and it was not phone calls. It goes back to poor decision making skills and vindictive attitudes.

One last thing to think about. It any of it was true why did the judge throw it out of court WITH PREJUDICE?

I am trying to figure out why you are wasting so much electronic ink on this topic. The judge said that even if what is in the complaint is true it doesn't amount to RICO....happens thousands of time a day across america on various charges and complaints ....what is it you don't get???

 

[V1cut]

because they only argue what they can.

All else is superbole'. Westies are feeling the pinch'....I'd guess it hurts. But, hey...it's "what they brought to the merger..."

 

[nic4us]

I think it's great that the union is supporting another that is in strike mode. If we had more of that in the Aviation business we would be better off............ Sign me up to walk the line, I've done it before and will again.

I agree. So, I will give you the reason I have reservations on this topic.

When I read this, having a jaded opinion of usapa, my first thought is not, good on him, President Cleary showing support for fellow pilots in their time of need, and on Labor Day!

My first thought is what does he hope to get out of this? Is he buddying up to the IBT? Does he want Amerijet to join usapa? Is he looking for a microphone to further mislead the public on the plight of the useast pilot? How does he think this will help him?

I see this as a selfish attempt to add legitimacy to an organization that has so little. Not support of the Amerijet pilots.

Perhaps I am wrong and it is actually both.

 

[N924PS]

I agree. So, I will give you the reason I have reservations on this topic.

When I read this, having a jaded opinion of usapa, my first thought is not, good on him, President Cleary showing support for fellow pilots in their time of need, and on Labor Day!

My first thought is what does he hope to get out of this? Is he buddying up to the IBT? Does he want Amerijet to join usapa? Is he looking for a microphone to further mislead the public on the plight of the useast pilot? How does he think this will help him?

I see this as a selfish attempt to add legitimacy to an organization that has so little. Not support of the Amerijet pilots.

Perhaps I am wrong and it is actually both.

It would be better for President Cleary to have represented ALL of the pilots at his own airline before striking out on such a mission.

But it plays well in Peoria on Labor Day.

 

[luvn737s]

Get over it.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you referring to Amerijet management's trampling of pilots rights or USAPA's?

If you have information that proves that the east has not taken over significantly more formerly PHX/LAS based flying than the east has lost to PHX crews, I'd be happy to stand corrected.

Otherwise there is substantially no difference between what USAPA is allowing and what Amerijet profiteers are doing.

Long story short - USAPA has no business boasting about protecting the rights of pilots while promoting it's own brand of apartheid. There's no getting over that.

 

[N924PS]

If you have information that proves that the east has not taken over significantly more formerly PHX/LAS based flying than the east has lost to PHX crews, I'd be happy to stand corrected.

Please visit the 8/18/09 PHX Crew News "PHX FLYING'.

The most authoritative source, Doug Parker, addresses your concern.

 

[cleardirect]

Clear, I am not going to get down into exchanging fighting words, that is counter to what the chat site should be about.

Not sure why you think those are fighting words. Stating facts.

I believe you misunderstand the LM-2. It covered 7/1/2008 through 3/31/2009. That $5K/month was for communication consultation (hotline stuff) and it didnt start until July 2008, long after the RICO suit stopped the problems. We use a number of other communications/phone/security sources, including GTI, AT&T, WAYPOINT, NUVOX and SYSTEL. Please restate your point if I am misunderstanding you.

LM-2 covering 7/1/2008- 3/31/2009 section 15, a guy named Steve Myers. Is listed as $5000 per month communication Hot line.

LM-2 covering 7/2/2007 -6/30/2008 section 15, a guy named Steve Myers. Is listed as $5000 per month Call Center Services. If this is not for an 800 number then what would USAPA be spending that amount for each month. No I think I understand just fine. There were no great huge phone bills run up by callers.

I won't respond or reprint your other accusations, but our RICO was dismissed in Federal court, not state. Your DFR was dismissed in State court, not Federal.

My post dealt with the dismissal of the RICO suit only. But to be accurate the state portion of the RICO charges were also dismissed.

Again, I won't reply to accusations. I have come to the conclusion it is not a good use of chat board privledge. The initial dues-paying membership was 2524, 10 weeks into USAPA representation. Its now 3218. Major strides in new members. ALPA and very other union use the term "representing" to include all pilots, furloughed, objectors, in their public relations releases. Not only do we include furloughees and objectors in our PR, we protect them best we can. For furloughees with medical insurance make-up, job info, a separate committee, grievances which we hope will get them (both East and West) back to work and refusal to add to the frulough list with a contract that doesn't protect those still working. LM-2s only report actual working pilots. I hope that explains the difference to you. The increase in membership of 694, especially when considering furloughs of 270, is not membership stalling as you previously said.

The numbers in the 3-31-09 LM-2 were 3218/4753 (active). That's 68% membership and 5 month old data. On 3-31 you had about 1700 active pilots. About 12% were members. So East had about 2900 members of the 3100 east active or 95% of the East active pilots were members. Your 737 East objector number is not correct.

That is a lot of we's. Sure are taking a lot of ownership of this union. Want to come clean and tell us what position you hold in the union?

My point about how many “membersâ€￾ is that we have seen USAPA overstate, spin and yes outright lie about things. When I pointed out that the 5200 number is inaccurate it is. It has never been accurate. It USAPA can not be honest about how many people they represent, a simple fact how can I trust them to tell me the difficult truths?

What is USAPA?

The US Airline Pilots Association represents 5,200 Mainline US Airways pilots.

Organizationally, USAPA is governed by the Board of Pilot Representatives who are elected by US Airways Pilots from the individual Pilot Domiciles throughout the Mainline US Airways system. They are supported by the US Airline pilots Officer Corp and Committee structure.

So according to the first LM-2 it was 5061 on June 30/2008. Before any furloughs. So USAPA has never represented that many pilots. What is the problem with being accurate?

As I remember, you asked if I had read them. I never said I had or hadn't. I don't know why you are so concerned, since you believe all was legit on the list that ALPA gave to our MC to present to Nic.

Yes the list is legit. My question was for accuracy. A point was made that somehow Nicolau "learned" something during his deposition that was going to have a profound change in his attitude. I asked for details, either a copy of the transcript or at least a first hand account. So far I have gotten neither. I can only conclude that the deposition is far less important then first presented. So it really is not as important as it was first posted.

 

[cleardirect]

Please visit the 8/18/09 PHX Crew News "PHX FLYING'.

The most authoritative source, Doug Parker, addresses your concern.

Well since you consider Doug Parker to be the authoritative voice of things. Go back and listen to what he has to say about the LOA93 pay rates, “snap backsâ€￾.

Believe him once believe him always.

Not going to happen EVER. Willing to tell USAPA to drop the grievance? Since Doug said so.

 

[N924PS]

Well since you consider Doug Parker to be the authoritative voice of things. Go back and listen to what he has to say about the LOA93 pay rates, “snap backsâ€￾.

Believe him once believe him always.

Not going to happen EVER. Willing to tell USAPA to drop the grievance? Since Doug said so.

USAPA will not listen to anything they don't want to hear. Anything that is not lockstep with the majority is to be disregarded, if not ignored completely. Even from MIGS from the East.

After all the management teams the East has suffered since the PSA-PI-USAir-AWA mergers, I consider the current CEO just as "authoritative" as his predecessors.

Hey, he's YOUR guy. The airline is being managed at it's highest levels by former Amerca West managers. If he says East won't get the snapbacks......... I guess that's why there exists a grievance process. And if he says West is not losing flying to the East, and you believe otherwise............GRIEVE IT TOO!

 

[nic4us]

Well since you consider Doug Parker to be the authoritative voice of things. Go back and listen to what he has to say about the LOA93 pay rates, “snap backsâ€￾.

Not going to happen EVER. Willing to tell USAPA to drop the grievance? Since Doug said so.

Clear,

N924PS would probably agree with you on the snap back, and may have even posted as much.

In all fairness I do not know who is flying more of the others routes. Personally, I seem to spend more than my fair share of time in PHL and CLT considering I am PHX based.

What I do know is that there was an arbitration over the growth 757s and the 190s and the West is owed some flying and rather than help us get it, a certain association employed an illegal stategy to try and keep us from collecting on that also. Further, they did nothing about the uneven furlough burden put on the West, except to arrange for former east pilots furloughed out of the west to take the jobs of others back east.

If I recall the West is owed 200 seats 5+5 in the 757s and 95+95 in the e190. That is 58 more seats than we have pilots furloughed. Who is flying those seats right now? Seems to me the damages just keep racking up. Problem is going to be how do you collect from welchers, liars and cheats.

 

[700UW]

Insist your organization attempt to gain some integrity, remove the knife from the backs of the West, Drop your silly un-winnable lawsuits, fire that leach Seham, accept the Nic. (as it's a fact one way or another) and then Maybe there's something to talk about. Until then...I'd say the dream of a Strike is as DOA as DOH.

The us plots leadership cut a deal with US management to keep flying over the IAM M&R Picket line during Oct of 92. During the 30 day cooling off period we we subject to much harassment buy ALPA, some AFA members, not many and a lot of non-union agents.

ALPA mad a deal to get all their pilots paid as long as they flew over our picket line, all ther 37-200, all dc9-md80 and f28 and f100 were grounded but all pilots got paid cause ALPA leadership ensured the pilots would cross the picket lines, as least AFA had to be ordered back to work by a judge and then won later on in arbitration.