US Pilots' Labor Thread 9/4 to 9/17--STAY ON TOPIC

[Metroyet]

The reason DOH is being applied is because it has stood in court as fair in numerous cases and is the preeminent system used by organized labor. It is quantifiable and objective.

Yeah right. How's that been workin' out for you Mr. Seham?

 

[luvn737s]

The reason DOH is being applied is because it has stood in court as fair in numerous cases and is the preeminent system used by organized labor. It is quantifiable and objective.

Then why did the east pilots even participate in ALPA's process when they knew in advance that DOH was not a requirement? Why wasn't USAPA formed prior to mediation and well before Nicolau ever saw this mess?

 

[Reed Richards]

Incorrect.

See USAir/Trump Shuttle (or NIC 1 if you prefer)

See DL/NW Arbitration

DOH may be "quantifiable and objective" but was not seen as "fair and equitable" in the above or NIC 2.

N924PS: I think you make a good point about ALPA merger policy. It is all over the map. We could spend an eternity talking about “Nic 1.â€￾ I am to this day not even sure what those guys DOH was, nor am I qualified to judge the award. DL/NWA? They had not a chance with good ol’ ALPA running the show.

The fact that a failed union has strayed from the norm should not be used as a reason to continue such folly.

USAPA brings sanity back to the table. The 9th Circuit or SCOTUS will decide in due time if that is acceptable.

RR

 

[ROACLT]

Then why did the east pilots even participate in ALPA's process when they knew in advance that DOH was not a requirement? Why wasn't USAPA formed prior to mediation and well before Nicolau ever saw this mess?

Why does it ever take some inexplicable action first for people to take the blinders off? Racial injustice had existed for centuries before it came to a head. The war in Vietnam had been raging for years before people started to protest and rally. Government has been spending money like water for decades and people are just waking up to the possible long term effects. Part of human nature that people tend to be trusting of those in authority, get burned or become enlightened , and then react.

 

[Metroyet]

USAPA brings sanity back to the table.
RR

The single funniest post EVER.

 

[cleardirect]

USAPA is trying to go with the gold standard of seniority by DOH. In the airline and union world this how it is done. Every employee in the airline world goes by this standard. When this standard is not followed law By-laws and constitutions and YES unions were change.ALPA national should of had clear cut merger language and not change it like underpants

We have come full circle. We are back to the same argument as four years ago. DOH,DOH,DOH. You do not want a clear merger policy you want an outcome. What you want is to now where you will end up on the seniority list BEFORE the merger deal is done. Well I can tell you right now. If the ALPA merger policy had been written like the east wants. DOH, then the AWA pilots would have raises holy hell, along with our F/A’s and tried everything in our power to ill this deal. Just lie DAL did.

That would be the same all over. If a stronger younger carrier is thinking about merging with an older carrier why would that younger carrier ever go along?

That “gold standardâ€￾ is a silly phrase that has no meaning. Point to the last merger that the PILOTS were integrated by straight DOH with no C&R. Did anyone look at the deal offered to the Frontier guys by that independent union SWAPA? Did DOH enter into that? The deal that APA the independent union gave the older more senior airline TWA. Was the "gold standard" applied?

No, the only people that think there is a gold standard of DOH is Seham and the east pilots. But it is fools gold to believe that non sense.

ALPA national should of had clear cut merger language and not change it like underpants

ALPA merger policy never said integration will be DOH. It said that DOH would be looked at and considered. Reference to DOH was removed in 1991. I would say that 16 years later is a long time to wear underpants. But if that is how long east pilot wear them it would explain the stench coming from the east coast.

 

[flyer63]

I for the life of me can't figure out why ALPA ever went along with this award.

It failed in so many ways..

but it can't for the life of me figure how this wasn't a

WINDFALL to the WEST

and how it didn't NEGATIVELY AFFECT most EAST's Career expectations...

Both against ALPA merger policy.

Bottom line is Prater was a Sissy and not a leader.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I for the life of me can't figure out why ALPA ever went along with this award.

It failed in so many ways..

but it can't for the life of me figure how this wasn't a

WINDFALL to the WEST

and how it didn't NEGATIVELY AFFECT most EAST's Career expectations...

Both against ALPA merger policy.

Bottom line is Prater was a Sissy and not a leader.

He did give you usapa, what are you complaining about?

 

[Metroyet]

Bottom line is Prater was a Sissy and not a leader.

Common Ground at Last!! (I'd add coward too)

 

[john john]

ALPA merger policy never said integration will be DOH. It said that DOH would be looked at and considered. Reference to DOH was removed in 1991. I would say that 16 years later is a long time to wear underpants. But if that is how long east pilot wear them it would explain the stench coming from the east coast.

If I recall correctly they change it because of the merger attempt with US/UA and recently change it because of the NW/DL merger. flavor of the month

 

[john john]

the AWA pilots would have raises holy hell, along with our F/A’s and tried everything in our power to ill this deal. Just lie DAL did.

Again what did HP bring to the table?
Are you comparing HP to DL

 

[HPDriver]

I for the life of me can't figure out why ALPA ever went along with this award.

Because is was fair, final, and binding. It was also the product of a process initiated and agreed to by the east MC.

It failed in so many ways..

That's just it, it didn't. It correctly credited both pilot groups' seniority at their respective airline and produced a list that reflected that.

but it can't for the life of me figure how this wasn't a

WINDFALL to the WEST

No windfall at all. I lost some relative seniority.

and how it didn't NEGATIVELY AFFECT most EAST's Career expectations...

AAA was on its way to either becoming an RJ only airline or liquidated. If there is any windfall, its goes to the east.

Both against ALPA merger policy.

If it was against the merger policy, you would have had a DFR against ALPA. You didn't file for one because there was NO DFR.

Bottom line is Prater was a Sissy and not a leader.

Ya, he should have passed the list to Parker the day it was put out.

 

[john john]

Ya, he should have passed the list to Parker the day it was put out.

Why didn’t he

 

[ClueByFour]

If USAPA is successful in its bid to change the Nicolau Award and gets the court to permit seniority to be changed inside a contract...then what would stop United or APA from electing a new Collective Bargaining Agent? Then the majority pilot group could impose their will on the minority, i.e. the United or American pilots could staple every US Airways pilot to the bottom of the combined seniority list. Maybe some people should be careful what they wish for. After all...USAPA would have taught the United or American pilots how to do this.

That's the nutshell. USAPA has really created a problem:

If they lose at the 9th (likely), they've enshrined Nicolau II into case law. If they win, they have to hope they are not bought/sold/fragmented/merged into a larger carrier, because the same stapler can be used against US Airways pilots.

A brilliant scheme. Shame that Bradford can't be found playing either poker or chess for money--lots of poor people could use the cash.

 

[HPDriver]

ALPA set up the MDA/CEL status as active PHL/CLT members.

Ah, there it is - CEL.

Are you stating here that the CEL pilots - pilots who NEVER interviewed at AAA, were considered mainline pilots?!?!?

And how were these express pilots flying with mainline pilots who were "never" furloughed (even though USAPA considers them to have been furloughed).

These 105 CEL pilots never had recall rights to mainline and could never exercise any seniority rights of a mainline pilot because they were NEVER mainline.

You're argument here falls apart because it violates the seniority clause in your CBA.

Your whole argument failed before and its failing again.