US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/30-7/7 KEEP ON TOPIC-NO PERSONAL COMMENTS

[boeingplt]

It's speaks volumes that 47% choose not to join USAPA.

Let's see, 1700 west pilots did not join because the thought they could roll the dice and some east pilots didn't join because they were waiting for the mother ship to return and reward them for their loyalty, and the vast majority of east pilots are behind USAPA. Yeah, that does speak volumes.

BP

 

[HPearlyretiree]

I never agreed to NIC arbitration

Your union did.

Then your side tried to weasel out of it by forming a new union.

And then you went to court and lost.

So, you will agree to NIC.

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

Your union did.

Then your side tried to weasel out of it by forming a new union.

And then you went to court and lost.

So, you will agree to NIC.

thats exactly my point, thank you. Implicit agreements and explicit agreements. You guys agreed to take jobs in a union shop then tried to "weasel out" (your words) of joining the union. so your just the same as the east in terms of this whole bs integrity thing and not honoring your commitments. Mind you, i'm not faulting you guys, I'm just saying our "agreement" to honor nic was much an "agreement" you guys made when you took your job and agreed to pay union dues, then, as circumstances changed, decided not to honor your agreement. Somehow your integrity is intact and ours is not so im just wavin the bs flag my brother.

 

[nic4us]

Agency shop with ALPOO, agency shop with USAPA - 6 of one, half dozen of the other.
Pay up or hit the street.
Lots of guys on furlough want your job.

Lots of folks on furlough wanted my job when the merger happened, USAPA founders are on record saying why they deserve to take my job. Now it seems they have sucessfully stolen some 142+ West jobs, and continue the fight to take more.

Snoop was right, for a short time USAPA will have West money to persue their attack of the West, but the backlash resulting from their misguided theivery has caused irreparable harm, and will strengthen the divide between the two groups.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

Lots of folks on furlough wanted my job when the merger happened, USAPA founders are on record saying why they deserve to take my job. Now it seems they have sucessfully stolen some 142+ West jobs, and continue the fight to take more.

Snoop was right, for a short time USAPA will have West money to persue their attack of the West, but the backlash resulting from their misguided theivery has caused irreparable harm, and will strengthen the divide between the two groups.

What you are smoking must be some good stuff. What jobs have been stolen? Are you implying that without the merger, there would have been no furloughs? Continental, arguably the best managed hub and spoke carrier has near 200 pilots on furlough and AWA would have been immune? Right. The fact is the only future this company has is because of the merger and the only real assets it has to build on are what US Airways brought to the dance. It's those assets and the huge sacrifices made by the East pilots in terms of pension, pay, and work rules to maintain them, that any pilot has a future with US Airways. Who is stealing, who's job? Who is trying to reap the reward of others sacrifices and sweat equity?

 

[nic4us]

What you are smoking must be some good stuff. What jobs have been stolen? Are you implying that without the merger, there would have been no furloughs? Continental, arguably the best managed hub and spoke carrier has near 200 pilots on furlough and AWA would have been immune? Right. The fact is the only future this company has is because of the merger and the only real assets it has to build on are what US Airways brought to the dance. It's those assets and the huge sacrifices made by the East pilots in terms of pension, pay, and work rules to maintain them, that any pilot has a future with US Airways. Who is stealing, who's job? Who is trying to reap the reward of others sacrifices and sweat equity?

First, If I were to smoke, It would only be the good stuff!

Second, I am stating that without the merger any West furloughs would have been furloughed from America West, and any east pilot would not have a job. As a seperated yet combined group we have furloughed out of seniority and there are east pilots working while there are West pilots senior to them furloughed( these same pilots were furloughed at the merger and are now working while the employed West pilots at the time of the merger are furloughed), there are also displaced West pilots who are now in F/O seats and F/Os who have never upgraded who all are senior to the junior east captains. This translates into the stealing of jobs. Go read the Theur interview in USA Today, or listen to Bradford talk on youtube prior to USAPA's election, and the same convoluted arguement of why it is okay to steal West jobs that you make is rationalized.

Without going into the who bought who arguement, lets just ask who runs the company now? You do realize it is the same people who ran America West minus a few who were the best talent? This is not the USAirways that you were furloughed from, and I do not care how much sweat equity you have, it does not give you the right to the West pilots job.

USAPA spews the same union rhetoric as ALPA or any other organized group, the difference is they are not organized. The latest "lets get an industry leading contract talk" coming from both sides to further their arguement is laughable. Right now the best we can hope for is 78% of an industry standard contract ( a 30% raise for the east) and we will not even get that as long as USAPA is at the wheel. It will be contract 2000 and LOA93 for the duration of USAPA's fight to enhance east positions at the expense of the West.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

thats exactly my point, thank you. Implicit agreements and explicit agreements. You guys agreed to take jobs in a union shop then tried to "weasel out" (your words) of joining the union. so your just the same as the east in terms of this whole bs integrity thing and not honoring your commitments. Mind you, i'm not faulting you guys, I'm just saying our "agreement" to honor nic was much an "agreement" you guys made when you took your job and agreed to pay union dues, then, as circumstances changed, decided not to honor your agreement. Somehow your integrity is intact and ours is not so im just wavin the bs flag my brother.

You know, as a west pilot I can actually see your point here, and I believe you are correct. It also looks to me like in a rather long and contentious way, both sides are being corralled around to making good. So far I have not seen a west pilot lose his job, most are paying at least germain fees once they can't run any more. And likewise, the east is slowly but surely losing their avenues to run and hide, and will ultimately live with the nic.

I know some will argue strongly with that last sentence, but hey, thats their prerogative.

 

[Waketurbulence]

thats exactly my point, thank you. Implicit agreements and explicit agreements. You guys agreed to take jobs in a union shop then tried to "weasel out" (your words) of joining the union. so your just the same as the east in terms of this whole bs integrity thing and not honoring your commitments. Mind you, i'm not faulting you guys, I'm just saying our "agreement" to honor nic was much an "agreement" you guys made when you took your job and agreed to pay union dues, then, as circumstances changed, decided not to honor your agreement. Somehow your integrity is intact and ours is not so im just wavin the bs flag my brother.

When I took my job I knew I would have to commit to paying union dues. At the time it was to ALPA, an organization that represented many different pilot groups, and offered me the benifits of that representation.

That Union was unfortunatly ousted by a mob of cry baby members AND NON MEMBERS from usair and replaced with an organization that has recently been found guilty of NOT representing me or any other former America West Pilot.

I had the integrity to pay my dues to ALPA and they had the integrity to represent me.

uspa has zero integrity, has been found guilty in a Federal Court for DFR, so why in the world would I pay for no representation unless I had a gun put to my head to do so which is the case here.

usappa convienently demands enforcment of our section 29, which I honored for many years, yet won't honor the transition agreement.

I pay my dues now because I'm forced to, period.

Who are the ones that really lack integrity?

 

[EastUS]

..... and will strengthen the divide between the two groups.

Said divide could even possibly be strengthened, or made any larger than it's historically been....umm....How? Where does one go from the earliest west proclamations of "All Out Warfare!!"...the casually offered (in taped company meeting sessions) "..and we hate you guys"..the denial of even the simplest professional courtesy via jump seat passage..or, my all time "favorite", taped west quote ="You know why I hate you guys?...I hate all of youse!" ? :blink:

Seriously, on a purely pragmatic basis, without meaning any insult = How would/does it get any worse than it has been/is?

 

[EastUS]

First, If I were to smoke, It would only be the good stuff!

Second, I am stating that without the merger any West furloughs would have been furloughed from America West, and any east pilot would not have a job.

Do you, and I mean very honestly, actually imagine that AWA would still be flying, had this monstrously mismanaged "merger" not taken place? If so....Why?..and on what basis? Specifics would be greatly appreciated.

I mean no nonsensical BS as to who supposedly "saved" who, as it's my guess neither would yet be in business.

 

[fatherabraham]

East perm bids are out

 

[hp_fa]

What is going to happen when the West folks join and they and the moderates will control at least 35% of the votes? What happens if the East objectors decide to join so they can vote against USAPA?

You can say "majority rules" and thank you for the dues contributions, but is that the real scenario?

Alternatively, what happens when some objectors decide to legally question the germane issue as far as USAPA litigation expenses in connection with the DFR litigation? Megasnoop has posted that he reads the Ellis case as allowing for those funds to be deemed germane. I am not sure that I agree that his interpretation is correct under the prevailing circumstances in the Addington and RICO litigations.

 

[Megasnoop]

Alpa is a Legitimate Union. You know...an organization that at least attempts to provide the member with some kind of service.

USAPA is organized crime, (Jury said so). The USAPA Cowards have no intention or ability to provide a shred of benefit to it's membership. Whatever monies USCAPA gets is going straight into Sehams pocket...as evidenced by their recent finanical filing that puts them well over 7 figures in arrears to said charlatan.

Jury didn’t say so. Jury found in favor of the plaintiff, based on the evidence that they were allowed to see and the jury instructions. We’ll see if the 9th Circuit agrees with the way the judge handled the case. Rather than let the process run its course, you continue assaults with “cowards, organized crime, USCAPA, Sehams pocket, charlatan.†That’s flame bait, pure and simple. Is it impossible for you to carry on a mature debate without the name-calling?

Not the same thing. I joined ALPA of my own free will.
It's speaks volumes that 47% choose not to join USAPA.
I paid my agency fee when I got my Section 29 letter.
You're going to have to find another way to steal my job.

But you paid your ALPA dues under threat of being fired. Glad your paid up, Dxx. I hate for anyone to lose a job. What speaks volumes is that 80% of East pilots chose to join USAPA.

And ALPA single handedly did away with the pilot’s pension without a vote
form the membership . A lot of deals bargaining and negotiations can and will be done with labor and management to achieve objectives Just thing what has gone down by way of pass contracts. What we had and have due to agreements with the union and management. The new kids on the block have a lot to discover

According to the West, the “new guys†are the “old guys.†At least that’s their ALPA-Gate conspiracy.

Let's see, 1700 west pilots did not join because they thought they could roll the dice and some east pilots didn't join because they were waiting for the mother ship to return and reward them for their loyalty, and the vast majority of east pilots are behind USAPA. Yeah, that does speak volumes.

BP

VOLUMES!

 

[Phoenix]

According to the West, the “new guysâ€￾ are the “old guys.â€￾ At least that’s their ALPA-Gate conspiracy.

If nothing has changed, what is their beef?

 

[Phoenix]

And ALPA single handedly did away with the pilot’s pension without a vote
form the membership . A lot of deals bargaining and negotiations can and will be done with labor and management to achieve objectives Just thing what has gone down by way of pass contracts. What we had and have due to agreements with the union and management. The new kids on the block have a lot to discover

Imagine what a spell checker won't catch for them..