US Pilots Labor Thread 3/11-3/18 OBSERVE THE RULES

[cleardirect]

I see no "win" or "loss" for either side thus far. How could there be? Nothing's been at all settled as of yet, either way. This scenario has zero meaning until any actual results occur. None have any way of knowing courtroom outcomes in advance, just for starters, and in any case? = Just call us all when ALL this is finally over, and you've EVER proudly taken the left seat of any east aircraft away from someone with twice your years worked. Until then?,,Which I'd again guess would only possibly happen sometime after Hell first hosts the Winter Games.....Just pass me the popcorn please

I could be wrong, (it wouldn't be the first time in my life) .... but let's have some collective patience and wait and see.

If no one has won anything yet. You sure are spouting off about how USAPA managed to get a jury to hear this.

Now again your confusing me. Should we call you when it is done, because none of this matters. Or should we pass you the popcorn because you are going to watch the happenings?

As far as me “proudlyâ€￾ taking my seat. That will only happen after 2 east for every 1 west F/O upgrades. If most of those vacancies are in the east that ratio will be closer to 4 east to 1 west. So don’t worry your head. You will not have to tolerate to many non white haired captains. Finally you can start to fly with the new east F/O’s. The ones that have only been there for 15 years. Better be careful and watch them close. Being inexperienced and all.

 

[cleardirect]

West would not budge when warned at Wye River.

Unlike in negotiations or mediation or arbitration. We are not required to budge.

You seem to have your time line and functions confused.

“WARNEDâ€￾ By who? Who had jurisdiction over forcing the west off an arbitrated position? Who had or has the authority to warn the west to give up a legal award?

 

[EastUS]

If no one has won anything yet. You sure are spouting off about how USAPA managed to get a jury to hear this.

Now again your confusing me. Should we call you when it is done, because none of this matters. Or should we pass you the popcorn because you are going to watch the happenings?

You will not have to tolerate to many non white haired captains.

1) It just tickles me that the side so suffused with self proclaimed "Integrity" and "Righteousness", so eagerly, but vainly, sought so mightilly to avoid facing a jury. One might ask the pertinent question = WHY?
2) Both. Might as well have some fresh popcorn while sometimes watching the show, even if not being much concerned with the movie's plot progress. Life and popcorn are to be enjoyed. Popcorn's always dependable, even if confronted with a boring plot line and questionable writing.
3) Heck..I often even "tolerate"white haired "First Officers",,You know? = The sorts you personally seek instant supremacy over.......

PS: On a personal level = What've you got against "White haired captains"?

 

[EastUS]

Unlike in negotiations or mediation or arbitration. We are not required to budge.

Yeah...How's that been working out for you?

 

[toganoflex]

1) It just tickles me that the side so suffused with self proclaimed "Integrity" and "Righteousness", so eagerly, but vainly, sought so mightilly to avoid facing a jury. One might ask the pertinent question = WHY?
2) Both. Might as well have some fresh popcorn while sometimes watching the show, even if not being much concerned with the movie's plot progress. Life and popcorn are to be enjoyed. Popcorn's always dependable, even if confronted with a boring plot line and questionable writing.
3) Heck..I often even "tolerate"white haired "First Officers",,You know? = The sorts you personally seek instant supremacy over.......

1. Why not? A quick ruling would by Wake would be much more desirable, don't you think. Seham would have played that game as well. Your side desperately wants a jury trial because its the last possible wildcard you have.

2. Agree - about the popcorn

3. No supremacy, just our rightful place on the list.

 

[EastUS]

3. No supremacy, just our rightful place on the list.

Ah!..the ever present "rightful", "righteous"/etc..umm..sure. Bad news = Your "rightful" place is "right" where you currently are. Let's just agree to differ on what any/all believe to be "rightful".,,although..at least we can fully agree on the popcorn issue...

 

[sharktooth]

Wye River was a dog and pony show Prater put on for the east and nothing more.

I like that comment. I bet a jury might also.

 

[ClueByFour]

Yeah...How's that been working out for you?

They got a judge to certify a class and hear a DFR suit less than 18 months into the new union. The seniority list that the company has accepted is Nicolau, and USAPA has to also handle the small matter of Empire/Shuttle.

They fought off the union suing it's own members and got a judge to dismiss that one with prejudice.

I don't think the West pilots are quite to the "what, me, worry?" stage yet, but it's not bad shakes, considering.

 

[cleardirect]

1) It just tickles me that the side so suffused with self proclaimed "Integrity" and "Righteousness", so eagerly, but vainly, sought so mightilly to avoid facing a jury. One might ask the pertinent question = WHY?

And your side so vainly sought to avoid, delay a trail of any sort. Same question, why. USAPA does hold the righteous and legal position right? Why delay the trial? Why avoid the class certification?

Why not a jury trail? Ask the lawyers that is a strategy question. Why so adamant about a jury trial?

2) Both. Might as well have some fresh popcorn while sometimes watching the show, even if not being much concerned with the movie's plot progress. Life and popcorn are to be enjoyed. Popcorn's always dependable, even if confronted with a boring plot line and questionable writing.

Agreed popcorn is good.

3) Heck..I often even "tolerate"white haired "First Officers",,You know? = The sorts you personally seek instant supremacy over.......

While your white haired formally furloughed F/O seeks supremacy over our captains

PS: On a personal level = What've you got against "White haired captains"?

Nothing. It seems that you have something against captains that do not have white hair.

 

[Phoenix]

As a new reader here, can somebody explain what this "nic" award is that you all fight about every day?

ALPA was the union for both America West and USAir when they merged oh so many decades ago. Upon merger, ALPA was unable to establish an integrated seniority list between the two pilot groups and by their policies compelled the two groups to outsource the seniority integration to an arbitrator. The arbitrator was named Nicolau. Each side made their argument before the arbitrator. In the opinion of some, the Nicolau award is justified because it punishes the East for their attempt to overreach. Yet other believe that Nicolau abandoned the guidelines to establish a fair and equitable list integration. At any rate, the Nicolau award was not effective until implemented in a combined, new pilot contract.

Everyone agreed ALPA failed to stand by the requirements of their policy to establish an integrated seniority list, or establish a new pilot contract (for various reasons), and as a result, ALPA was decertified as the union. It is gone.

Inherent to the new union, the democratically elected union constitution and bylaws established seniority integration policy. The lawyers of both sides are billing lots of hours.

The argument and bit$hing between pilots will go on for decades and only end when every affected pilot has flown West, so to speak.

 

[sharktooth]

... and USAPA has to also handle the small matter of Empire/Shuttle.

No they don't.

Empire gave up their DOH in return for PI's retirement.

Shuttle took their relative seniority, giving up a chance to get on the US retirement.

You seem historically challenged when it comes to the US group. Perhaps you should first ferret out some facts first to avoid giving the appearance of ignorance.

 

[sharktooth]

Everyone agreed ALPA failed to stand by the requirements of their policy to establish an integrated seniority list, or establish a new pilot contract (for various reasons), and as a result, ALPA was decertified as the union. It is gone.

The failure to integrate was only one in a long line of failures.

 

[hp_fa]

Let me try a more fact-based version.

In May, 2005 it was announced that US Airways and America West would merge. At the time US Airways was in Chapter 11 bankruptcy and appeared to have very few options. Other airlines and business interests submitted proposals to the creditors and the court that mostly would have fragmented US Airways. America West came in and offered to merge with the entire company and that was accepted.

At the time of the merger the pilots of US Airways and America West were both members of ALPA. Under the applicable ALPA merger rules the two groups attempted to negotiate their combined merger list and subsequently failed to reach agreement. ALPA's merger policy than provided that the parties would arbitrate their differences and a arbitration panel was formed per ALPA's policy. The chair of the committee was George Nicolau, a professional arbitrator.

Both sides presented evidence and arguments to the Arbitration panel. The evidence included things such as the West's position regarding the financial condition of US Airways at the time of the merger and the East pilots position that date-of-hire was the correct way to merge the airlines.

The panel, after hearing all the evidence and legal arguments, made an award. That award did not follow DOH and East pilots began to speak of decertifying ALPA as the bargaining agent. It is argued that East pilots were unhappy with ALPA prior to Nicolau. However, prior to Nicolau no actions were taken to remove ALPA from the property.

Once the airlines were formally combined, some East pilots founded USAPA (US Airlines Pilots Association) and did get enough signatures to force an election under the provisions of the applicable federal law concerning the National Mediation Board. USAPA won with nearly all its votes coming from former East pilots and few from West pilots.

It is argued by West pilots that USAPA has not acted in good faith towards them by attempting to bypass the Nicolau arbitration award and installing a DOH method per its union bylaws. Additionally, some issues arose regarding the membership applications and representation of West pilots' interests in USAPA.

Some West pilots formed the Army of Leonidas (AOL) which has obtained its own legal counsel and is suing USAPA and some union officials for, among other things, for a failure in its Duty of Fair Representation (DFR) of the former America West pilots.

There is presently a pending legal action for a restraining order and other legal remedies in the Federal Court, District of Arizona. The liability portion of that matter will be tried on April 28, 2009 in Phoenix. The trial is scheduled to last eight days.

That is the short version. I attempted to be objective.

 

[tazz]

West would not budge when warned at Wye River.

Warned by whom and for what reason? Wye River was AFTER arbitration. Arbitration is final and binding. What part of this point don't you understand?

 

[tazz]

Yeah...How's that been working out for you?

It's been working pretty well, actually. We have hope and the law is on our side. How's it working for you?