US Pilots Labor Thread 1/28 to 2/3

[wopr21]

Yes I am aware of your seniority. You have informed me of it before.

But you are not being perfectly clear. Are you saying you were a captain before America West had their first airplane, or are you implying you were a captain before I played with airplanes in a sandbox?

What you said was no one would have to wait 30 years. I assumed you meant no one would have to wait 30 years to own the top of the list as was my reply to Dorf.

Now you say no one would have to wait 30 years to "upgrade". Well I should hope not, that would only require half of the DOH seniority jumpers from the East to retire! I figure that is only about 8-12 years. If I were a 49 year old recently displaced captain like my F/O last week, I would be pissed if I had to wait for 1500 or more retirements so pilots who by all rights should be junior to me, at least 700 who were furloughed when I was a captain get to take their turn with my seat until I get it back at age what 59?

Let me be perfectly clear, AW did not come along! AW brought you along.

Boy... I can't wait to retire

wopr

 

[BoeingBoy]

And this is where the federal judge in New York will weigh in on the "list," and possibly the arbitrator's methods, rationale and decisions.

I'm sure there'll be at least two judges weighing in on all of this, and I didn't say otherwise. Just correcting your apparent misunderstanding of what constitutes a certified list and what doesn't.

Who knows, one or all of those judges may even look at the list actually used by "old" US at the time.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

And this is where the federal judge in New York will weigh in on the "list," and possibly the arbitrator's methods, rationale and decisions. The arbitrator will remain personally unscathed (except for what little remains of his reputation.) However, as the west loves to point out, don't underestimate the power of a federal judge.

The outcome of this will not be decided only in the Addington case, but in the MDA lawsuit as well. If they are in conflict, there are procedures in place in the federal judiciary to resolve that type of jurisdictional disagreement. This will not go away any time soon if that be the case.

The NY judge is going to be very careful about poking around in the rational and methods of how the list was constructed. If you remember the 190 arbitration. The arbitrator made a decision based on not leaving a footprint on the seniority arbitration. No judge wants to interfere with an another arbitration. They were not there they do not have all of the facts. You guys can wish and hope and dream that the NY judge can and will change the list. Not going to happen.

The east has a pretty high opinion of yourselves don’t you. That you would actually think that this single case in a long and distinguished career would diminish his reputation. I can tell you that any rational person that has looked at the facts of this case think that Nicolau did a fine job. Go back and read what your neutral had to say about Mr. Nicolau

Read what the United and NWA MEC MC had to say about the final list. They thought it was fair. His reputation is quite in tact. It is the east pilots that needs a lot of work around the industry.

When a federal judge rules we will see whether Nicolau’s reputation remains.

 

[28L_or_10R?]

Pilots are keeping Jane Wells busy in the cnbc news room:

And a final couple of emails about the blogs on United Airlines [UAUA 9.44 -1.06 (-10.1%) ] pilots unhappy with new Aer Lingus joint venture, and the ensuing shoutfest between pilots from the original US Airways [LCC 5.67 -0.80 (-12.36%) ] and those who came in from America West.

Pilot Lance T. writes that the flurry of pilot emails were child's play: "This dogfight is nothing. You should see how we act when they put us together in the same room. We don't like facts to get in the way of a good mud-slinging. Think, 'police presence required' to keep the peace. I mean that quite literally! Thanks for writing the story."

And G. writes "get over yourselves..........Geez... as an airline employee for over 40 yrs I am amazed at the level of self-importance all of these folks have. It's a JOB! Not a rank, not a permanent membership in Skull and Bones or the Masonic lodge. There is no secret handshake or wink. JOB. So is plane cleaner a job, or flight attendant, or fueler or mechanic...Capt. in the airlines is a work position, not a rank. It is not an indicator of relative skill or even experience. There are a lot of first officers with a lot more experience and talent than the people sitting to their left. Every pilot out there is a product of the luck of the draw. They all sent out applications and accepted the offer most viable for themselves. Most did not 'audition' the mgm't team at their prospective employer. It is an industry that is fluid. Always has been, always will be. ALPA years ago had a chance to establish one national or international seniority list. That way, their seniority would always have been guaranteed, regardless of their company affiliation. They rejected that idea, even though back then plenty of the 'elders' predicted the kinds of conflicts that now arise. So I suggest that everybody suck it up, be glad you have someplace to go to work doing something you like to do and be damn grateful...I wasn't a flight officer, but I met and knew a lot of them. There were a few that I knew (who) had been last in their class. The guy who scored just a little lower than (they did) was told he couldn't be a pilot. And a lot were like Capt. "Sully"; first in his class at the USAF academy and headed for the Hall of Fame. Just remember to be as loyal to your employer as he is to you, and always remember that when all is said and done, the size of your funeral will depend largely on the weather!"

 

[sharktooth]

It is the east pilots that needs a lot of work around the industry.

Actually, it really doesn't matter about your "list", since the TA, which defines the arbitration and how it is used, will, likely, never be completed as, for instance, pay by DOH would likely be untenable to the west.
and, Nicholau's reputation was never an issue. The information presented to him has been proved wrong time and again, from an "east list" that contained conditional information, at best, to the old "who bought whom" argument. For a little flaw in your reality, consider Barbell Acquisition Corporation.

 

[Megasnoop]

The USAPA cowards don't need money, they need to be on the right side of the Law. 10 months in and nothing but lawsuits, failure, and embarassingly low wages for the real usapians.

Metro, you guys are a broken record. Same old story seems all you got. What do you expect, USAPA to do in 10 months what ALPO couldnt do in 3 years? I thought you liked your wages. You keep throwing them in our face. You didnt go to Section 6 when you had the chance back in June 2006. Using words like "cowards" is just another flame bait attack. Were not going to RIK. Our wages are where they are because of an ALPO-induced concessionary LOA-93. That all goes away in 11 months. We snap back, contract or no contract. We also get two $35 Million bonuses in 2010 and 2011. As far as lawsuits are concerned, Id say youve got us matched about one for one. Also, if ALPO hadnt gutted our pension plan, I bet most of our over-60 pilots would have retired in the past 13 months. Instead, you can count on one hand those who have gone out of the 200+ who turned 60. We can go Sect 6 this June. Then well have some clout. Till then its just shadow-boxing. BTW, wins in the RJ and reduced hours arbitrations, everyones back to work. Forgot, Ive mentioned that before.

Tell me does usapa enjoy picking on girls? Does it make them feel like big men? Of the 10 section 29 letters to got out 3 have been to women. 30% of terminations aimed at a population of 2-3%. The leadership just can not be that stupid. Are they intimidated by strong minded women? What is it?

More flame-bait, Clear. Thats all you guys got left. Maybe USAPA looked at who was leading the charge out west not to pay dues. And all those west he-men, hiding behind the skirts. BTW, I hear one of your females not only paid up but she joined and running for Rep. Snooper

 

[Megasnoop]

(tazz @ Jan 30 2009, 09:59 AM)
Those challenges had no merit or the list would not have been certified. I was on the west Merger Committe so I do know what I am talking about.

Tazz, if the bogus ALPO list had no merit, then MDA case would have been dismissed long ago. Courts dont deal in bogus cases, do they?

Certified by who? Certified by ALPA. Thats a laugh, who do you think the law suit is against?

You hit it right, Schultz. In ALPO merger policy, a list used must be certified by ALPO. The only list ALPO was going to allow was the one excluding MDA pilots. Either side could have passed the list, since it was the only one certified. Maybe one of the West cockpit lawyers can explain. An MDA pilot belongs to the PHL LEC, he pays dues and votes there, he even holds office as Sec/Tres there, chairs a AAA MEC committee there, his paycheck say US Airways. So how can he not be an active pilot at AAA? It all boils down to this, ALPO had only one list to "certify." And that list excluded MDA pilots. It had to. A list including MDA certified by ALPO would cost ALPO the MDA lawsuit. Snooper

January 28, 2009

Empire/Shuttle pilots:
Tomorrow January 29, 2009 USAPA will have to answer our complaint.
In solidarity
Rocco, Steve. Tim, Don, Dou

"Rocco, Steve. Tim, Don, Dou" and a "cast" of 3 others. You got to hand it to these guys. Trying to change a seniority list 20 years after the fact. Some imagination.

The Empire and Shuttle pilots are absolutely justified in this complaint. I have personally told my USAPA union reps to settle this issue by granting the Empire and Shuttle pilots their original pre-merger date of hire. It is the right thing to do and is required by the USAPA constitution.

Respectfully, Underpants, I usually agree with you, but not on this one. Empire seniority was settled 20 years ago and Shuttle 10 years ago with multiple contracts since. Win or lose, USAPAs got to play this one out in court, not settle. IF the Roccos win in court, then USAPA has no choice. But if USAPA does "the right thing," it will just generate another round of lawsuits. Does that make sense? Pease reply. Snooper

 

[Phoenix]

And this is where the federal judge in New York will weigh in...

He'll always remain older, and grayer than I, but never as hansom. Two outa three...

 

[cleardirect]

Actually, it really doesn't matter about your "list", since the TA, which defines the arbitration and how it is used, will, likely, never be completed as, for instance, pay by DOH would likely be untenable to the west.
and, Nicholau's reputation was never an issue. The information presented to him has been proved wrong time and again, from an "east list" that contained conditional information, at best, to the old "who bought whom" argument. For a little flaw in your reality, consider Barbell Acquisition Corporation.

It is not my list it is our list. The list that you and all of the east and west pilots agreed to let Nicolau decide. You guys are already getting LOS pay. Do you think that just because USAPA passes some worthless resolution management is going to start paying 2,3,4,5 years over what they have been?

It is the east that keeps bringing up Nicolau’s reputation. Recall the phrase “Nicolau is a senile old manâ€￾ All of the other derogatory things he has been called.

“The list has been proved wrongâ€￾ By who and how? Just because some unnamed source says so proves nothing. Where is your evidence? Where is the court of law or jury that agrees with any of it?

 

[cleardirect]

More flame-bait, Clear. Thats all you guys got left. Maybe USAPA looked at who was leading the charge out west not to pay dues. And all those west he-men, hiding behind the skirts. BTW, I hear one of your females not only paid up but she joined and running for Rep. Snooper

Flame bait? Is it true that USAPA has sent 30% of their termination letters to females?

Check your facts. You are wrong again. One of the three was vocal about the injustice of the tyranny of your majority. That is her right. The other two were quiet and had nothing to do with anything.

Besides do you and USAPA have a problem with strong women? They like to unfairly attack them. As evidenced by the 30% of the letters going to 2-3% of the population. Maybe it is just a prejudice thing. In your world women can only be F/A’s?

Do you have an issue with a female domicile rep? Maybe she has joined and wants to run. Isn’t that what you and USAPA has been demanding? Now you have a problem with us doing what you say you wanted. Could it just have been rhetoric? Shut up, pay USAPA your money and get out of the way.

Sorry not going to happen that way.

 

[Captain Underpants]

Respectfully, Underpants, I usually agree with you, but not on this one. Empire seniority was settled 20 years ago and Shuttle 10 years ago with multiple contracts since. Win or lose, USAPAs got to play this one out in court, not settle. IF the Roccos win in court, then USAPA has no choice. But if USAPA does "the right thing," it will just generate another round of lawsuits. Does that make sense? Pease reply. Snooper

Snooper,

The problem is USAPA is using as a very valid defense in Arizona that they are just following their constitution and bylaws and merger policy which says they will maintain uniform principles of seniority based on date of hire with reasonable conditions and restrictions to protect a pilots pre-merger career expectations. If USAPA applies this policy only to West pilots and not East pilots it becomes arbitrary and is no longer a valid defense. The Empire pilots already have DOH seniority for furloughs, vacations, non-rev, etc which was previously negotiated with the company. They also have DOH on F-28 aircraft based in Syracuse which will kick in when we buy more F-28's and reopen the Syracuse crew base.

I believe USAPA should offer to reorder the seniority list to DOH for all pilots and then apply conditions and restrictions to preserve pre-merger career expectations just like the constitution says. The conditions and restrictions could leave everyone with about the same bidding rights anyway if that is determined to be a fair and equitable settlement.

If the reordered list is included in a legally sanctioned Federal court settlement it would make it impossible to ever implement the Nicolau list. Yes it could trigger a whole new round of lawsuits that would go on for many years. DOH with conditions and restrictions to fix any inequities is a beautiful thing because it will work with any seniority dispute no matter how ugly it gets.

underpants.

 

[Megasnoop]

Flame bait? Is it true that USAPA has sent 30% of their termination letters to females?
Check your facts. You are wrong again. One of the three was vocal about the injustice of the tyranny of your majority. That is her right. The other two were quiet and had nothing to do with anything. Besides do you and USAPA have a problem with strong women? They like to unfairly attack them. As evidenced by the 30% of the letters going to 2-3% of the population. Maybe it is just a prejudice thing. In your world women can only be F/A’s? Do you have an issue with a female domicile rep?

Maybe in the first round, 30%, but that % way diluted now. Less than 3% now after the latest letters went out. We all heard susie at the Parker training center Q&A. If she got singled out it was her mouth, not her gender. She made herself a target. Then there was your former com chairperson and her attacks and promises to bury us at our informational meeting in PHX before the election. Love that u-tube. Did she get a termination letter too? I hear she joined, paid up. Despite all her antics, if she wants, shes got a right to run as a member in good standing if she made the cut-off. Again your totally changing the subject, deflecting, try to make something out of nothing. Got a burr up your bonnet? Are you one of the 3? may your best man/woman win. We have a number of "strong women" involved and even chairing our committees. Our Grievance chairperson comes to mind.

Maybe she has joined and wants to run. Isn’t that what you and USAPA has been demanding? Now you have a problem with us doing what you say you wanted. Could it just have been rhetoric? Shut up, pay USAPA your money and get out of the way. Sorry not going to happen that way.

We always wanted you to join, never demanded anyone do, east or west. We just demand you pay or get fired. We need more west input like Vasin participating. Hes doing grievances. For us who do pay, we dont like the freeloaders, either side. Looks like it is happening that way, clear. You pay up or you get fired. Sooner or later well get the rest of you deadbeats. Join and pay your dues, you can shoot your mouth off all you want. BTW, Vasin is right. All legal ways to appeal Sect 29 termination are gone. Pay or be fired. your attorney fruend said the same thing. snooper

 

[sharktooth]

It is not my list it is our list.

Assorted west pilots are the only ones holding the "Nic" as legitimate.

It is the east that keeps bringing up Nicolau’s reputation. Recall the phrase “Nicolau is a senile old manâ€￾ All of the other derogatory things he has been called.

Nicolau may well be a senile old man. What, exactly, does that have to do with his "reputation" for, I presume you mean, his arbitration skills?

“The list has been proved wrongâ€￾ By who and how? Just because some unnamed source says so proves nothing. Where is your evidence? Where is the court of law or jury that agrees with any of it?

You may need help with your reading skillz. I said the "information" presented to Nicolau, was conditional and depends on legal outcomes. Please read and comprehend. I will add, now that you bring it up, that the "likely" false information may make his "ruling" incorrect.

Aside from all that, the "nic" is dead in the water. The west pilot's attempts to move forward from the "nic" will result in frustration for you all. Times have changed as well as the players. You will get your list, in about seven to nine years. Live long and prosper.

BTW, no comment about Barbell?

 

[cleardirect]

Maybe in the first round, 30%, but that % way diluted now. Less than 3% now after the latest letters went out. We all heard susie at the Parker training center Q&A. If she got singled out it was her mouth, not her gender. She made herself a target. Then there was your former com chairperson and her attacks and promises to bury us at our informational meeting in PHX before the election. Love that u-tube. Did she get a termination letter too? I hear she joined, paid up. Despite all her antics, if she wants, shes got a right to run as a member in good standing if she made the cut-off. Again your totally changing the subject, deflecting, try to make something out of nothing. Got a burr up your bonnet? Are you one of the 3? may your best man/woman win. We have a number of "strong women" involved and even chairing our committees. Our Grievance chairperson comes to mind.

Here are the facts. 4 letters came to the west a couple of months ago. Of those four, two were sent to women. Recently 6 more letters came to the west. Of those 6 one that I know of went to a woman. Doing the math that is ten letters total to the west, Three have gone to women. 30% of the current letters have attacked women. Not diluted. What am I changing my point to? My post said that USAPA has unfairly attacked a disproportionate amount of women. That was the point that still is my point.

DCA update January 18, 2009
Forty names were selected this week for action. A courtesy phone call is given to each individual before the "15 Day Termination Letter" is put in the mail. So far, we've been getting good results. Thank you DCA pilots for doing your part. We have the fewest problems in all the bases regarding delinquent dues. Each month a new group of pilots from those delinquent will be randomly selected and given the opportunity to become current in lieu of termination.

Snoop either you had better read the updates or you just made the DCA reps liars. According to USAPA the names were selected RANDOMLY. But you are trying to tell us that the women were selected as a form of punishment. Oops. That would be found in court to be a violation and discriminatory. So what is it? Are you making things up or is USAPA lying about these being random? That women have be selected to silence their dissention? Is that a how dictatorship do it? No free speech, no counter ideas, accept the party line or be punished.

 

[nostradamus]

Here are the facts. 4 letters came to the west a couple of months ago. Of those four, two were sent to women. Recently 6 more letters came to the west. Of those 6 one that I know of went to a woman. Doing the math that is ten letters total to the west, Three have gone to women. 30% of the current letters have attacked women. Not diluted. What am I changing my point to? My post said that USAPA has unfairly attacked a disproportionate amount of women. That was the point that still is my point.

That women have be selected to silence their dissention? Is that a how dictatorship do it? No free speech, no counter ideas, accept the party line or be punished.

You should contact the USAPA pilot that is the chairperson for contract grievances, I am sure she would be glad to check on this conspiracy theory of yours.