US Pilots Labor Thread 1/28 to 2/3

[BoeingBoy]

Jim, your feigned gullibility is not convincing.

Ignoring the point isn't any more convincing - a list isn't just handed to the arbitrator and called certified by those handing it over (any more than if you or I made up a list and called it certified). A certified list goes through a vetting process that begins with the respective company list and ends when each side agrees that the other's list is accurate. Since the "certified" list submitted by the East MC didn't even correspond with the company list, why would you expect a different outcome than that which occurred?

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

Sure you could submit a list and call it certified. But to do so would be pointless as it would be rejected since you don't, and didn't have, the responsibility or authority to submit the list.

Phoenix,

You make an excellent point. Your logic is flawless.

The west MC did not have the authority or responsibility to submit a list for the east. There is no way the west could have submitted a list and have it stand. The east MC would have/should have seen it and thrown it out. The east lawyer should have/would have known that the list was not “certifiedâ€￾ and submitted by an “unauthorizedâ€￾ party.

So underpants is going to have to explain and PROVE with evidence how an unauthorized party the west submitted and had a list excepted in front of the east MC and attorney. Accusation like this one just make us shake our heads. What is the east smoking to come up with nonsense rumors and theories that have no basis in fact or reality.

It you guys are going to make something up keep it within the realm of possibility.

 

[nic4us]

But even under a DOH list, won't the west pilots "Own" the top third of the seniority list in about 4-6 years when all the age 65 retirements happen? Or can't they wait and want their due now?

Dorf

No., and this a huge misconception. But sure eventually the top numbers on the list would all be West,All the West pilots placed on the bottom of the list who were young enough to wait 25-30 years for every DOH pilot placed above them to retire. This in stark contrast to what the arbitrator decided.

To the second part of your question, yes, they prefer not to wait and want was rightfully afforded to them sooner rather than later.

 

[nycbusdriver]

No., and this a huge misconception. But sure eventually the top numbers on the list would all be West,All the West pilots placed on the bottom of the list who were young enough to wait 25-30 years for every DOH pilot placed above them to retire. This in stark contrast to what the arbitrator decided.

To the second part of your question, yes, they prefer not to wait and want was rightfully afforded to them sooner rather than later.

No one would have to wait 30 years. Except for a handful, all the east pilots hired before 1999 (after the nearly 10 year hiring hiatus) were already well into their forties when the merger was announced. The east list is quite geriatric, much like TWA was in their waning years.

 

[nic4us]

No one would have to wait 30 years. Except for a handful, all the east pilots hired before 1999 (after the nearly 10 year hiring hiatus) were already well into their forties when the merger was announced. The east list is quite geriatric, much like TWA was in their waning years.

you are saying no pilot hired in 1999 was under the age of 35?

America west did considerable hiring from 1999 on and with a DOH list any continuously employed West pilot hired post 1999 would be junior to any 1999 mostly furloughed east pilot for the duration of their career up to and including 25-30 years.

I understand that those east pilots hired prior to 1989 would have reached their 40th birthday prior to the merger, as did most of their West counterparts hired prior to 1999.

The question is do you understand yet why you will not get DOH, and why the arbitrator did not grant it?

 

[Pacemaker]

Don't forget the "Age 70" push that's already happening....

 

[nycbusdriver]

you are saying no pilot hired in 1999 was under the age of 35?

America west did considerable hiring from 1999 on and with a DOH list any continuously employed West pilot hired post 1999 would be junior to any 1999 mostly furloughed east pilot for the duration of their career up to and including 25-30 years.

I understand that those east pilots hired prior to 1989 would have reached their 40th birthday prior to the merger, as did most of their West counterparts hired prior to 1999.

The question is do you understand yet why you will not get DOH, and why the arbitrator did not grant it?

First, let me be perfectly clear. I GOT date of hire. I was a captain here before your first airplane arrived at the sandbox.

Second, I did NOT say that no pilot hired in 1999 was under the age of 35. What I said was, all but a handful of pilots hired before the hiring restarted in 1999 were well into their forties when AW came along. With that factor, no one would have to wait "25-30 years" for upgrade due to a straight DOH list. It's likely that more than 80% of the pilots hired on the east pre-1999 will be gone long before even 25 years.

 

[nic4us]

First, let me be perfectly clear. I GOT date of hire. I was a captain here before your first airplane arrived at the sandbox.

Second, I did NOT say that no pilot hired in 1999 was under the age of 35. What I said was, all but a handful of pilots hired before the hiring restarted in 1999 were well into their forties when AW came along. With that factor, no one would have to wait "25-30 years" for upgrade due to a straight DOH list. It's likely that more than 80% of the pilots hired on the east pre-1999 will be gone long before even 25 years.

Yes I am aware of your seniority. You have informed me of it before.

But you are not being perfectly clear. Are you saying you were a captain before America West had their first airplane, or are you implying you were a captain before I played with airplanes in a sandbox?

What you said was no one would have to wait 30 years. I assumed you meant no one would have to wait 30 years to own the top of the list as was my reply to Dorf.

Now you say no one would have to wait 30 years to "upgrade". Well I should hope not, that would only require half of the DOH seniority jumpers from the East to retire! I figure that is only about 8-12 years. If I were a 49 year old recently displaced captain like my F/O last week, I would be pissed if I had to wait for 1500 or more retirements so pilots who by all rights should be junior to me, at least 700 who were furloughed when I was a captain get to take their turn with my seat until I get it back at age what 59?

Let me be perfectly clear, AW did not come along! AW brought you along.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Unfortunately we don't even know if we'll be around a year from now... At least in current form.

 

[cleardirect]

What part of, the seniority lists were instituted and accepted via the agreed upon contracts which these individuals voted on? Where as the NIC award hasn't been voted in anywhere or implemented into a contract.....hmmmm

Could you point out the legal document that says that there is a vote on the Nicolau award?

Where is that? I can not find anything that says that we get to vote on the arbitration results. Where is that?

 

[Phoenix]

Phoenix,

You make an excellent point. Your logic is flawless.

The west MC did not have the authority or responsibility to submit a list for the east. There is no way the west could have submitted a list and have it stand. The east MC would have/should have seen it and thrown it out. The east lawyer should have/would have known that the list was not “certifiedâ€￾ and submitted by an “unauthorizedâ€￾ party.

So underpants is going to have to explain and PROVE with evidence how an unauthorized party the west submitted and had a list excepted in front of the east MC and attorney. Accusation like this one just make us shake our heads. What is the east smoking to come up with nonsense rumors and theories that have no basis in fact or reality.

It you guys are going to make something up keep it within the realm of possibility.

Underpants isn't going to have to prove what the West did or didn't do. This isn't about the West vs. underpants, as much as you might wish.

The West had their position. The East had their position. The company might have disagreed with both, but so what. The point of the arbitrator is to arbitrate between the two sides that disagreed.

If the authorized position of the East (contained in the list as certified by the authorized agent of the East) was the list presented to the arbitrator then it was. If a different list was received by the arbitrator as if it represented the East's position then that is problematic.

A member on the committee that had the responsibility and authority says there was monkey business. Don't sweat it.

 

[BoeingBoy]

If the authorized position of the East (contained in the list as certified by the authorized agent of the East) was the list presented to the arbitrator then it was. If a different list was received by the arbitrator as if it represented the East's position then that is problematic.

Perhaps a little study of the merger policy in effect at the time is in order....

Each side does not get to make up their own list, call it certified, and present it to the arbitrator - this is the part you continually gloss over. One of the first actions of the two merger committees is to exchange lists and "resolve any and all disputes and inconsistencies with regard to the employment data exchanged." Only when each side agrees that the employment data presented by the other side is accurate are the lists certified.

If agreement can't be reached between the two merger committees through negotiation or mediation, the list(s) in dispute become part of the arbitration - one or both sides do not have a certified list. When this is the case, the merger committee(s) can and should submit their version of a disputed list to the arbitrator. It's then up to the arbitrator to decide what the disputed list(s) should look like (thus making it/them certified), and of course then combine them.

It seems that the arbitrator was convinced by testimony and/or exhibits that the West's disagreement with the East list was valid so corrected the inaccurate parts of the list submitted by the East to arrive at a certified East list.

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

It seems that the arbitrator was convinced by testimony and/or exhibits that the West's disagreement with the East list was valid so corrected the inaccurate parts of the list submitted by the East to arrive at a certified East list.

Jim

And this is where the federal judge in New York will weigh in on the "list," and possibly the arbitrator's methods, rationale and decisions. The arbitrator will remain personally unscathed (except for what little remains of his reputation.) However, as the west loves to point out, don't underestimate the power of a federal judge.

The outcome of this will not be decided only in the Addington case, but in the MDA lawsuit as well. If they are in conflict, there are procedures in place in the federal judiciary to resolve that type of jurisdictional disagreement. This will not go away any time soon if that be the case.

 

[luvthe9]

The Company is pleased with this tentative agreement that delivers RAISES and INCREASED retirement benefits for Southwest Pilots. This agreement once again demonstrates SWAPA's commitment to maintain Southwest's competitive position and financial strength during these challenging economic times.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Southwest-Ai...s-14213332.html

 

[nycbusdriver]

The Company is pleased with this tentative agreement that delivers RAISES and INCREASED retirement benefits for Southwest Pilots. This agreement once again demonstrates SWAPA's commitment to maintain Southwest's competitive position and financial strength during these challenging economic times.

They really accomplished this without ALPA's expertise and clout?

How can this be?