US Pilots Labor Thread 1/28 to 2/3

[Captain Underpants]

Ta states that the list will be accepted by all parties, the list came out a year before usapa was in power, they inherit the list and management has accepted the list as required by the TA. This is the crux of the problem, undoing the list is no different than rearranging the east list in anyway they see fit. The list exists, it can't be put into effect until a single contract is done, it can only be modified by nicolau himself, he retains jurisdiction.

Probably true that USAPA can not change the Nicolau list. The problem is that the TA is a bridge agreement that ends when a new single contract is voted in. When the transition to a new contract is complete the transition agreement is superceded.

USAPA as the CBA has exclusive rights granted by the RLA to negotiate all sections of the contract including section 22 seniority. The Nicolau list does not have to be changed by USAPA but can be simply not recognized by section 22 as the system seniority list. The transition agreement does not continue until the year infinity as you imply even if the Nicolau list continues to exist in a drawer indefinitely and is never changed. The Nicolau list is currently valid but has no current value or enforceable seniority rights and will never have any unless both USAPA and the company agree to negotiate it into section 22 of the new single contract.

The Arizona Federal court does not have the authority to overule the RLA and take away USAPA's right to negotiate changes to seniority provisions in the contract. USAPA could even do away with seniority completely and change to a merit based system as some foreign carriers use as long as the company agreed.

underpants.

 

[Tiger 1050]

The Arizona Federal court does not have the authority to overule the RLA....

underpants.

So how exactly did you lose your parity + 1% and your pension? Under RLA a contract becomes amendable it does not expire. So if your logic is correct then there is no way any federal judge could have reduced the benefits therein. I don't believe you negotiated those benefits away... Did you?

Maybe I am not following you.

 

[Captain Underpants]

So how exactly did you lose your parity + 1% and your pension? Under RLA a contract becomes amendable it does not expire. So if your logic is correct then there is no way any federal judge could have reduced the benefits therein. I don't believe you negotiated those benefits away... Did you?

Maybe I am not following you.

Yes that's true the pay and pension were negotiated away by ALPA and the Federal bankruptcy Judge played no role. There is an emergency provision in bankruptcy law where the Judge could eventually abbrogate the labor contracts if the survival of the company was at stake. The Union would then have had the right to strike any time thereafter.

underpants.

 

[nycbusdriver]

The Empire and Shuttle pilots are absolutely justified in this complaint. I have personally told my USAPA union reps to settle this issue by granting the Empire and Shuttle pilots their original pre-merger date of hire. It is the right thing to do and is required by the USAPA constitution.

underpants.

Do you mean the Empire (FAR 135) DOH for flying Navajos and Metros?

And the a DOH for the Shuttle pilots given to them by a company they resigned from?

Or the Empire DOH when the airline actually started flying F28s under FAR 121?

Or the Shuttle DOH for the day the Trump Shuttle actually got an operating certificate and started flying?

Should the Piedmont (original) pilots who had a company DOH flying Piedmont Aviation FAR 135 charters get their DOH updated?

How about the Eastern pilots who resigned and cam directly to Piedmont and USAir? Do they get updated, too? After all, those ancient 757s were, by ALPA policy, supposed to bring EAL pilots with them.

 

[Crzipilot]

Yup, they were negotiated away in LOA 84. Besides.. Little known fact ALPO doesn't want you to know. Parity +1% was a management request, and was originally viewed as concessionary by ALPO, when it became pay raises, alpo crowed how smart of a package they put together.

As to the judge reducing the benefits and such, as you are thinking. Within BK proceedings the company can issue or request the judge to terminate the union contracts. Don't remember what section it's called or whatever. But alpo and the pilots decided they would do better agreeing to concessions prior to the judge deciding. Hence LOA 93 i believe. If I recall the f/a's and mechanics took their chance with the judge, and came out better than the pilots did. In relation to % of hourly pay cuts, and benefit reductions. I.E. Pilots pay more for health insurance than any other group I believe....

 

[nycbusdriver]

Yup, they were negotiated away in LOA 84. Besides.. Little known fact ALPO doesn't want you to know. Parity +1% was a management request, and was originally viewed as concessionary by ALPO, when it became pay raises, alpo crowed how smart of a package they put together.

As to the judge reducing the benefits and such, as you are thinking. Within BK proceedings the company can issue or request the judge to terminate the union contracts. Don't remember what section it's called or whatever. But alpo and the pilots decided they would do better agreeing to concessions prior to the judge deciding. Hence LOA 93 i believe. If I recall the f/a's and mechanics took their chance with the judge, and came out better than the pilots did. In relation to % of hourly pay cuts, and benefit reductions. I.E. Pilots pay more for health insurance than any other group I believe....

The Parity+1 was seen as a coup for Wolf and Gangwal, because we should have gotten a larger pay raise under normal circumstances. Then UAL, DAL and CAL took their companies to the cleaners shortly after, and the USAir pilots came out smelling like a rose for a short time.

I think it was called an "1113 letter." Basically, it was an agreement made before bankruptcy filing that was a "pre-packaged" concession and would not be touched after the filing. The ALPA-hired attorney (I don't remember what that Bozo's name is) went around like Chicken Little saying we needed that letter or the bankruptcy court would rake us over the coals. Hence, LOA 93.

As you indicated, the AFA and IAM decided to take their chances with the court and came out much better than the pilots. It was the pants-wetting, weak-sister, "Let-my-daddy-vote" crowds from CLT, DCA, and LGA that are responsible for LOA 93. The base-by-base statistics on the vote don't lie. It was overwhelmingly rejected by PIT and PHL.

 

[tazz]

If you were on the West merger committee then you would know that the East list was certified with the MDA pilots properly shown as active mainline pilots and submitted to Nicolau as the "certified East seniority list". The problem is the West merger committee submitted to Nicolau a second uncertified fake list that changed the status of the MDA pilots from active mainline to furloughed. It can be easily proven using data markers that Nicolau used the fake East list to build the merged list. That is how active mainline E-170 Captains with 17 years of continuous service ended up below new hire west pilots.

One definition of fraud is: "a fraud is a deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual." The West submitted the fake East list to raise their relative positions vs. the MDA pilots which was a deception for personal gain. ALPA merger policy requires only certified seniority lists be used to build a merged list. Preventing these type of problems is why ALPA takes the time and effort to certify the lists.

If the East had taken the "certified West seniority list" and changed 300 pilots including 175 active west captains status from active to furloughed to boost their relative position it would also obviously be a fraud. The problem for the West is they obtained their Nicolau positions through a fraudulent deception. The common law "clean hands doctrine" would prevent the Arizona Federal court from awarding any damages or injunctions in the unlikely event a duty violation is found against USAPA.

Of course all this proves how foolish it is to try to build a seniority list based on rapidly moving and subjective relative positions instead of objective longevity data.

underpants.

Whoa! Down, big boy! Don't get your "undepants" in a bunch. Your totally false and emotional reply is not worth responding to except to say that if your lies are so easy to prove then by all means do so.

 

[Phoenix]

Whoa! Down, big boy! Don't get your "undepants" in a bunch. Your totally false and emotional reply is not worth responding to except to say that if your lies are so easy to prove then by all means do so.

As to what the "East certified list" contained, it is a simple question. A member of the committee that passed it spoke to the issue long ago. Its simple. Yes or no. "Was the list you passed as certified used or not?" He said no. He wrote no. And testifies no. That is one reason among several that the MDA pilots have a strong law suit against ALPA.

Cheers.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The problem with calling a list the "certified list" is that anyone can produce a list and call it certified. Want one showing all but the top 100 East pilots furloughed? Maybe one showing every East pilot active. I can make you one up with a simple find and replace on a computer file. I can even call it "certified" for $5.

The list the company used shows Collelo and everyone below him as furloughed until he shows up as a PHL 767D F/O in August 2006.

The East MEC wanted it both ways - MDA as a wholly-owned subsidiary for the change of control grievance and MDA as an integral part of mainline for the merger. The company also wanted it both ways - MDA as a wholly-owned subsidiary for contracts, pay, etc and MDA as an integral part of mainline for the grievance.

Jim

 

[Phoenix]

The problem with calling a list the "certified list" is that anyone can produce a list and call it certified. Want one showing all but the top 100 East pilots furloughed? Maybe one showing every East pilot active. I can make you one up with a simple find and replace on a computer file. I can even call it "certified" for $5.

The list the company used shows Collelo and everyone below him as furloughed until he shows up as a PHL 767D F/O in August 2006.

Jim

Sure you could submit a list and call it certified. But to do so would be pointless as it would be rejected since you don't, and didn't have, the responsibility or authority to submit the list.

 

[BoeingBoy]

About as pointless as the MC submitting a list and calling it certified, I guess. There is a process to go through to arrive at a certified list - it's not just a matter of handing a list over and calling it "certified".

Especially when the company's list is different...

Jim

 

[Phoenix]

About as pointless as the MC submitting a list and calling it certified, I guess. There is a process to go through to arrive at a certified list - it's not just a matter of handing a list over and calling it "certified".

Jim

Jim, your feigned gullibility is not convincing.

To feign ignorance as to the necessity of an actual East list (rather than an unauthorized one) before the arbitrator for his evaluation is disingenuous, at best.

Plaintiffs and defendants don't get to present each other's case.

 

[nic4us]

Probably true that USAPA can not change the Nicolau list. The problem is that the TA is a bridge agreement that ends when a new single contract is voted in. When the transition to a new contract is complete the transition agreement is superceded.

USAPA as the CBA has exclusive rights granted by the RLA to negotiate all sections of the contract including section 22 seniority. The Nicolau list does not have to be changed by USAPA but can be simply not recognized by section 22 as the system seniority list. The transition agreement does not continue until the year infinity as you imply even if the Nicolau list continues to exist in a drawer indefinitely and is never changed. The Nicolau list is currently valid but has no current value or enforceable seniority rights and will never have any unless both USAPA and the company agree to negotiate it into section 22 of the new single contract.

The Arizona Federal court does not have the authority to overule the RLA and take away USAPA's right to negotiate changes to seniority provisions in the contract. USAPA could even do away with seniority completely and change to a merit based system as some foreign carriers use as long as the company agreed.

underpants.

I follow your logic easy enough. However, if USAPA does not recognize the Nic in section 22 what do they put in its place. Is your arguement that USAPA can say we have 2 seniority list, this Valid Nic one in a drawer we never use, and this nifty DOH one we came up with that clearly harms the West and favors East.

I think you underestimate the authority a Federal Judge.

 

[CAVOK]

usapa can "hope" all day long. But in the end it is usapa that starts and persues the termination no one else.

Right again, CD. In fact I am going to drop a line to Steve Bradford and thank him for pursuing these scafflaws! How many chances do these people need? I hated ALPA, but I paid.

Again, aren't you glad that you are paid up?

 

[Dorf]

I follow your logic easy enough. However, if USAPA does not recognize the Nic in section 22 what do they put in its place. Is your arguement that USAPA can say we have 2 seniority list, this Valid Nic one in a drawer we never use, and this nifty DOH one we came up with that clearly harms the West and favors East.

I think you underestimate the authority a Federal Judge.

But even under a DOH list, won't the west pilots "Own" the top third of the seniority list in about 4-6 years when all the age 65 retirements happen? Or can't they wait and want their due now?

Dorf