US Pilots Labor Thread 1/28 to 2/3

[ableoneable]

Pilots use landing of Flight 1549 to seek better pay

Congratulations to USAPA for doing something really, really stupid.

Not only is this a dangerous strategy in this case it has the potential to really blow up in all of our faces when the NTSB releases their final report. Early indications are not positive.

By Jefferson George
[email protected]
Posted: Friday, Jan. 23, 2009
The successful landing of Flight 1549 by Chesley “Sullyâ€￾ Sullenberger – and praise of his skill and experience as a pilot – have become a rallying point for US Airways pilots who have long sought better pay.
After giving up pay, pensions and other benefits while the airline was in bankruptcy protection earlier this decade, US Airways pilots make less than their counterparts at all other major airlines – despite having more experience.
Within US Airways, pilots who flew for the carrier before the 2005 merger with America West Airlines make less than America West pilots despite their longer years of service, said James Ray, a spokesman for the U.S. Airline Pilots Association, the pilots union.
The two pilot groups haven't merged because of a dispute over seniority lists, and US Airways has said it won't negotiate a new contract with better pay until the groups are combined.
“That shouldn't be holding us up,â€￾ Ray said Thursday, claiming that US Airways “Eastâ€￾ pilots with Sullenberger's experience have made $60,000 less than “Westâ€￾ pilots with the same service.
“The right thing to do is to give Sully and the East pilots at least (pay) parity,â€￾ Ray said, adding, “His W-2, like mine, closely resembles his W-2 of 1988.â€￾
Airline experts, however, say the amazing story of Flight 1549 – while a point of pride for US Airways pilots – likely won't change labor talks, mainly because safety issues are non-negotiable.
“That's not part of the pay structure,â€￾ said Webster O'Brien, a vice president at the New York City aviation consulting firm Simat, Helliesen & Eichner. “I don't think you're going to see this kind of thing put on the bargaining table.â€￾
While executives may appreciate Sullenberger's performance, they likely won't budge on the demand for pilots to combine groups before getting a new contract, said Dan Kasper, a managing director at the LECG consulting firm in Cambridge, Mass.
“You can't raise one pilot's pay,â€￾ or one pilot group's pay, Kasper said, calling the US Airways pilots “divided almost to the point of dysfunctionality.â€￾
The next meeting of union officials and management will be in February, Ray said. Sullenberger isn't part of the union's leadership, he said, but “if Sully wanted to get involved, we're always looking for volunteers.â€￾
In any case, Ray said, union officials won't be shy about reminding US Airways executives of Sullenberger's performance on Flight 1549.
“Every chance we get,â€￾ he said.

 

[tazz]

"One more thing: with all of the discussion on a "flawed" list being used by Nicolau.... total BS! Certified lists were used and the pilots had an opportunity to challenge their status on that list prior to affirming their individual positions on said list. Pilots on the east did not challenge their positions on the list used by Nic and in previous mergers such as Trump. Those affected did not take the opportunity to state their case at the appropriate time or the lists used would never have seen the light of day. You guys are simply taking advantage of having a new "union" and hoping to unscramble an egg."

sorry tazz,

many of the mda pilots did challenge these positions and that documentation is already submitted with discovery !

You guys keep on talking about what you don't know. Now say it over and over to make it true !

Those challenges had no merit or the list would not have been certified. I was on the west Merger Committe so I do know what I am talking about.

 

[Schultz]

Those challenges had no merit or the list would not have been certified. I was on the west Merger Committe so I do know what I am talking about.

Certified by who? Certified by ALPA. Thats a laugh, who do you think the law suit is against?

 

[cleardirect]

You are right CD. What USAPA said was, "... it is our hope that no pilots will be terminated..." , but this is an agency shop. It is bigger than you, me, the company, or USAPA.

I know that you are glad you are paid up in your dues.

USAPA Update 1-29-09: The meeting then moved back into Open Session to receive a briefing from Secretary/Treasurer Mark King, who discussed with the Board the fact that the Company is now complying with Section 29 of the Working Agreement and has upheld two terminations via Section 29 proceedings. Secretary/Treasurer King reiterated that while USAPA is pleased that the Company is now complying with the contract, it is our hope that no pilots will be terminated and that all pilots will now choose to bring their memberships into good standing.

usapa can "hope" all day long. But in the end it is usapa that starts and persues the termination no one else.

 

[cleardirect]

Certified by who? Certified by ALPA. Thats a laugh, who do you think the law suit is against?

As usapa points out at every opportunity. At the time they were the legal bargaining agent. Also as usapa is quick to point out. Unions have a wide range of latitude. Do either of these statements sound familiar.

So it was up to ALPA to certify the list. I remember during that time ALPA sending out forms to challenge the list. It survived the challenges. Where was the injunction? The MDA guys had a lawyer at the time. They had a case in court at the time. Where was the injunction to stop the arbitration until the suit was decided?

 

[fodase]

January 28, 2009

Empire/Shuttle pilots:

Tomorrow January 29, 2009 USAPA will have to answer our complaint. The complaint will be filed electronically with the Court. Once that is complete our lawyer will receive notification of the filing and will begin to review the answer.

We believe the answer will contain a 12b6 motion, which is a "failure to state a claim," it is the defendant's responsibility to then file a motion for a 12b6 hearing. Filing a 12b6 in the answer is standard because if you do not request it in the answer you lose it forever.

The 12b6 determines if the claim has merit. Our claim will withstand any 12b6 motion. Our lawyer briefed us to expect a 12b6 motion to be filed so that USAPA can say to their constituents that the claim has no merit and then later to say they could not convince the court in a 12b6 motion because the bar is set too high. Also by filing this 12b6 motion the defendant can control the timeline at the start of this process. For example If Seeham requests a 12b6 motion the day after he files the answer the earliest it would be heard is March.

In our opinion tomorrow will start an interesting and controversial time for USAPA. They will begin to argue in one court against date of hire and against their constitution and by laws, while in another court they will be arguing for date of hire and for their constitution and by laws. Everything USAPA argues in Arizona for date of hire we will use against them in North Carolina, and I am sure everything USAPA argues against date of hire in North Carolina will be used against them in Arizona.

Empire/Shuttle pilots we did not put USAPA in the dilemma they find themselves in, they did it by their actions of exclusion, leading to this DFR.

Once USAPA's answer becomes public record we will get it out to you for review. As always please remember all we did was ask a date of hire union for our date of hire.

In solidarity

Rocco, Steve. Tim, Don, Dou

 

[Crzipilot]

What's your point?

That the East is better than the West because our rate is the lowest it's been in recent history?

You're a real genius.

If you can not draw an effective correlation from that, well then I guess you belong where you are.

 

[Crzipilot]

Those challenges had no merit or the list would not have been certified. I was on the west Merger Committe so I do know what I am talking about.

If you were on the merger committe, then I would imagine you could understand the situation. But you obviously can not......or are still carrying water for alpo.... Of course Alpo is not going to hang themselves out to dry by saying one thing on one side of the fence, while saying another on the other side. You do know if alpo had agreed that MDA pilots should be shown as active and not furloughed on the seniority list, they would have thrown themselves down the river in the MDA lawsuit.

 

[Crzipilot]

January 28, 2009

Empire/Shuttle pilots:

Tomorrow January 29, 2009 USAPA will have to answer our complaint. The complaint will be filed electronically with the Court. Once that is complete our lawyer will receive notification of the filing and will begin to review the answer.

We believe the answer will contain a 12b6 motion, which is a "failure to state a claim," it is the defendant's responsibility to then file a motion for a 12b6 hearing. Filing a 12b6 in the answer is standard because if you do not request it in the answer you lose it forever.

The 12b6 determines if the claim has merit. Our claim will withstand any 12b6 motion. Our lawyer briefed us to expect a 12b6 motion to be filed so that USAPA can say to their constituents that the claim has no merit and then later to say they could not convince the court in a 12b6 motion because the bar is set too high. Also by filing this 12b6 motion the defendant can control the timeline at the start of this process. For example If Seeham requests a 12b6 motion the day after he files the answer the earliest it would be heard is March.

In our opinion tomorrow will start an interesting and controversial time for USAPA. They will begin to argue in one court against date of hire and against their constitution and by laws, while in another court they will be arguing for date of hire and for their constitution and by laws. Everything USAPA argues in Arizona for date of hire we will use against them in North Carolina, and I am sure everything USAPA argues against date of hire in North Carolina will be used against them in Arizona.

Empire/Shuttle pilots we did not put USAPA in the dilemma they find themselves in, they did it by their actions of exclusion, leading to this DFR.

Once USAPA's answer becomes public record we will get it out to you for review. As always please remember all we did was ask a date of hire union for our date of hire.

In solidarity

Rocco, Steve. Tim, Don, Dou

What part of, the seniority lists were instituted and accepted via the agreed upon contracts which these individuals voted on? Where as the NIC award hasn't been voted in anywhere or implemented into a contract.....hmmmm

 

[Crzipilot]

usapa can "hope" all day long. But in the end it is usapa that starts and persues the termination no one else.

I hope they continue to do so. This is another avenue that alpo failed. They had section 29 in the contract and never enforced it. Since they never looked for it to be enforced, it basically went by the wayside as not being enforceable. So you end up with lots of people that don't pay dues, for not agreeing with the majority, but still taking the benefits of having a contract in place.

Paying dues at a unionized airline is not new. If you don't want to, go find a non unionized carrier. There are plenty of them out there. No matter if you agree or not with the union, you have the obligations set forth.

Now if USAPA goes through with enforcing this, and then in the future ends up like alpa and slacking....then we got problems...

 

[fodase]

What part of, the seniority lists were instituted and accepted via the agreed upon contracts which these individuals voted on? Where as the NIC award hasn't been voted in anywhere or implemented into a contract.....hmmmm

Well is the ta part of your contract? did you vote on the ta?

 

[Captain Underpants]

Those challenges had no merit or the list would not have been certified. I was on the west Merger Committe so I do know what I am talking about.

If you were on the West merger committee then you would know that the East list was certified with the MDA pilots properly shown as active mainline pilots and submitted to Nicolau as the "certified East seniority list". The problem is the West merger committee submitted to Nicolau a second uncertified fake list that changed the status of the MDA pilots from active mainline to furloughed. It can be easily proven using data markers that Nicolau used the fake East list to build the merged list. That is how active mainline E-170 Captains with 17 years of continuous service ended up below new hire west pilots.

One definition of fraud is: "a fraud is a deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual." The West submitted the fake East list to raise their relative positions vs. the MDA pilots which was a deception for personal gain. ALPA merger policy requires only certified seniority lists be used to build a merged list. Preventing these type of problems is why ALPA takes the time and effort to certify the lists.

If the East had taken the "certified West seniority list" and changed 300 pilots including 175 active west captains status from active to furloughed to boost their relative position it would also obviously be a fraud. The problem for the West is they obtained their Nicolau positions through a fraudulent deception. The common law "clean hands doctrine" would prevent the Arizona Federal court from awarding any damages or injunctions in the unlikely event a duty violation is found against USAPA.

Of course all this proves how foolish it is to try to build a seniority list based on rapidly moving and subjective relative positions instead of objective longevity data.

underpants.

 

[Captain Underpants]

Empire/Shuttle pilots we did not put USAPA in the dilemma they find themselves in, they did it by their actions of exclusion, leading to this DFR.

Once USAPA's answer becomes public record we will get it out to you for review. As always please remember all we did was ask a date of hire union for our date of hire.

In solidarity

Rocco, Steve. Tim, Don, Dou

The Empire and Shuttle pilots are absolutely justified in this complaint. I have personally told my USAPA union reps to settle this issue by granting the Empire and Shuttle pilots their original pre-merger date of hire. It is the right thing to do and is required by the USAPA constitution.

underpants.

 

[Crzipilot]

Well is the ta part of your contract? did you vote on the ta?

Nope, didn't vote on the t/a. Go back in the TA and reread section III and IV and V. Replace ALPA with USAPA. (easily done in word or something) and from my view point. the TA was never completed. Parts of it were..... Then the world changed and alpa was gone. So you have USAPA with it's merger policies and such, that must be followed.....that's my take.

Very well could be wrong....as your view could just as well be wrong.

the answer will come from the Judge....

 

[fodase]

Nope, didn't vote on the t/a. Go back in the TA and reread section III and IV and V. Replace ALPA with USAPA. (easily done in word or something) and from my view point. the TA was never completed. Parts of it were..... Then the world changed and alpa was gone. So you have USAPA with it's merger policies and such, that must be followed.....that's my take.

Very well could be wrong....as your view could just as well be wrong.

the answer will come from the Judge....

Ta states that the list will be accepted by all parties, the list came out a year before usapa was in power, they inherit the list and management has accepted the list as required by the TA. This is the crux of the problem, undoing the list is no different than rearranging the east list in anyway they see fit. The list exists, it can't be put into effect until a single contract is done, it can only be modified by nicolau himself, he retains jurisdiction.