US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Barrister]

Does your family ever discuss the legal, moral, and ethical practice of honoring your commitments made via contracts, covenants, or by word of mouth agreements? Is there any correlation between a person who refuses to honor one type of contract, say a transition agreement, because he doesn’t want to be bound to its requirements and his personal integrity to honor the agreements and covenants he might make in other areas of his life? It seems logical that once a person begins to view agreements as though they don’t apply to them based on a narcissistic viewpoint, he might decide that he is above honoring any and all commitments he has made; the domino effect if you will.

Let me tell you about honoring your commitments. Roofer comes to my house
and says I can fix your roof for $1000 (this is a true story). Says it will take him
all day. I say OK go for it. He goes up on the roof from 9-11. Takes a lunch break.
Comes back at 1:00 stays an hour. Puts his hand out at 2:00 and says all done, pay me.
I say not so fast. You told me it was an all day job and that it what I based my decison on
as to the fairness of your proposal. He says not my fault. He did not get the $1000
but what he got was "fair"

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Missfit]

Very deep Callaway, I guess I'm supposed to feel chastised, ashamed...not sure what you're going for.

It's also honorable to stand up for yourself when you've been wronged. Agreeing to the process is one thing, when the result is so egregious and wrong as this Nic abomination was I think it's less honorable to lay down and say "oh well I guess that's the way the cookie crumbles".

These men have every right to stand up and say that this arbitration was wrong and fight it's implmentation. That, my friend, is the honorable thing for them and their families to do.
Being blindfolded and asked to accept what's behind number door #2 regardless of the outcome, then to find out it's a execution squad is kind of how ALPA merger policy/Nic hit the East pilots and their careers.

The question I always have is the west seems so anxious to have a contract put out...any contract as long as it has Nic, not a mention of scope, work rules, heck you don't even seem to care about industry standard pay, just that it has to have Nic. The west is just salivating over it, with good reason I suppose. The fact that "Nic at any cost" is kind of the west's motto seems to be telling. It was a windfall and you boys are DESPERATE to cash in.

The fact that the east and their family's are willing to sit with loa93, says something as well. We are strong in OUR resolve and we will honorably stand up for what is right..in this case it is certainly not the Nic award. ALPA merger policy failed. You want to start with calling out dishonorable individuals start with "Pass the buck" ALPA.

But to call My husband and his fellow co-workers dishonorable for standing up for what is right, just shows that you're the one trying to steal from someone.

 

[Missfit]

luvn

I think us "east wives" have more time to spend on the boards than our husbands...you know loa93, overworked/understaffed.

I've read this board since the merger days. It falls into my regular daily readings..news, airline forums, etc, etc.

We do support our husbands. Maybe the west wives are getting desperate for their men to sign a contract.
Most of the east wives have been in this business longer than some of those west pilots. We know how the airlines work.

This whole thing will play out in the courts.
We're willing to wait it out if we have to...maybe your wives aren't.

 

[Freighterguynow]

The question I always have is the west seems so anxious to have a contract put out...any contract as long as it has Nic,

Like the man said - oil is $87 a barrel.

The West route network does not work at those numbers. Heck, it doesn't work at $65 which is why they are flying 24% of their block hours on East routes.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Very deep Callaway, I guess I'm supposed to feel chastised, ashamed...not sure what you're going for.

It's also honorable to stand up for yourself when you've been wronged. Agreeing to the process is one thing, when the result is so egregious and wrong as this Nic abomination was I think it's less honorable to lay down and say "oh well I guess that's the way the cookie crumbles".

These men have every right to stand up and say that this arbitration was wrong and fight it's implmentation. That, my friend, is the honorable thing for them and their families to do.
Being blindfolded and asked to accept what's behind number door #2 regardless of the outcome, then to find out it's a execution squad is kind of how ALPA merger policy/Nic hit the East pilots and their careers.

The question I always have is the west seems so anxious to have a contract put out...any contract as long as it has Nic, not a mention of scope, work rules, heck you don't even seem to care about industry standard pay, just that it has to have Nic. The west is just salivating over it, with good reason I suppose. The fact that "Nic at any cost" is kind of the west's motto seems to be telling. It was a windfall and you boys are DESPERATE to cash in.

The fact that the east and their family's are willing to sit with loa93, says something as well. We are strong in OUR resolve and we will honorably stand up for what is right..in this case it is certainly not the Nic award. ALPA merger policy failed. You want to start with calling out dishonorable individuals start with "Pass the buck" ALPA.

But to call My husband and his fellow co-workers dishonorable for standing up for what is right, just shows that you're the one trying to steal from someone.

Please cite any recognized moral or ethical code that governs any civilization where abiding by one's agreements is considered dishonorable or conversely where violating or abandoning agreements is considered honorable. If you can't then all of the verbosity the east can muster doesn’t change the fact that not abiding the terms of the TA and the NIC award is just patently immoral with no equivocation. That is fact as opposed to opinion. 2+2=4 is a fact just as not honoring one’s agreements is unquestionably immoral and unethical. No interpretation is required on that point.

How fair or unfair the NIC may be is an opinion, not a fact. What is a fact as it relates to the NIC is that the east pilots via USAPA are intentionally harming themselves, the west pilots, the Company including other employee groups, Management, shareholders, and its customers all so the east pilots delay the inevitable implementation of binding arbitration, which was a process they agreed to like it or not.

 

[nycbusdriver]

They got your address the same way JC Penny, and the hundreds of thousands of other retailers did. It's readily available.

I'm like you - I get plenty of unsolicited mailings but don't waste the time wondering about any "how" or "why". Just consider it the cost of having an address.

They got the addresses from the same place JC Penney does? All my neighbors get the same JC Penney sale catalogs that I do. Funny, not one of them got the mailing from Leonidas. Why is that?

PERSONAL WISE REMARK MADE TO A SPECIFIC MEMBER REMOVED BY MODERATOR

Why wasn't the east so outraged when USAPA began sending unsolicited mail to west pilot's houses? No one on the west agreed to allow their addresses to be released by the company and the company had no obligation to provide them.

First, that's absolutely wrong. The company is obliged to release your contact information to the legally recognized bargaining agent.

Second, it simply AMAZES me how the west posters here can consistently miss the not-so-subtle distinctions between getting a mailing address that one is legally entitled to, and getting one that is a result of a privacy breach.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Let me tell you about honoring your commitments. Roofer comes to my house
and says I can fix your roof for $1000 (this is a true story). Says it will take him
all day. I say OK go for it. He goes up on the roof from 9-11. Takes a lunch break.
Comes back at 1:00 stays an hour. Puts his hand out at 2:00 and says all done, pay me.
I say not so fast. You told me it was an all day job and that it what I based my decison on
as to the fairness of your proposal. He says not my fault. He did not get the $1000
but what he got was "fair"

NICDOA
NPJB

Not the whole story then. You can deduct for the deficiency, but the contractor can sue you for the difference. A court (or arbitrator if there was an arbitration clause) will decide who is owed what.

Question for you . . . what happened in our disagreement? To whom did it go to settle the difference? Anyone? Anyone?

 

[LSS]

Please cite any recognized moral or ethical code that governs any civilization where abiding by one's agreements is considered dishonorable or conversely where violating or abandoning agreements is considered honorable. If you can't then all of the verbosity the east can muster doesn’t change the fact that not abiding the terms of the TA and the NIC award is just patently immoral with no equivocation. That is fact as opposed to opinion. 2+2=4 is a fact just as not honoring one’s agreements is unquestionably immoral and unethical. No interpretation is required on that point.

How fair or unfair the NIC may be is an opinion, not a fact. What is a fact as it relates to the NIC is that the east pilots via USAPA are intentionally harming themselves, the west pilots, the Company including other employee groups, Management, shareholders, and its customers all so the east pilots delay the inevitable implementation of binding arbitration, which was a process they agreed to like it or not.

Well the East pilots are so accustomed to dealing with crappy, lying management, WHO NEVER SEEM TO HONOR THEIR AGREEMENTS... maybe we've taken a lesson and learned from the "masters"... I agree with Missfit... as do more wives than you can count. You think the arbitrated NIC is what we must live up to... we think it is an abomination... and no number of Leonidas propaganda pieces will ever change our minds.... Seniority is negotiable!... internal union matter... sorry if it doesn't fit your "lottery-ticket" agenda! And as has been said at least 1000 times... the courts will decide... and perhaps, in discovery, we will learn how Leonidas obtained the East pilot's addresses... which I believe is governed under privacy laws!

 

[LSS]

Had the individual East pilot's been given an opportunity to determine whether we would agree to go to binding arbitration, and the "tyranny of the majority" had voted to do so, then all this BS about not honoring your agreements might have some validity in our eyes... but that didn't happen, now did it?... and ALPA paid the price!

 

[nic4us]

How fair or unfair the NIC may be is an opinion, not a fact.

It is my opinion that the Nic is indeed, as a matter of fact, and by any definition thereof, fair.

On a second topic. What is the big deal where AOL obtained addresses? Even if the company supplied the info (which I very much doubt), no animals were harmed in the making of this film, so that is pretty much THE END.

Third, the West is indeed most anxious to get a new contract. Our contract became amendable years ago, we have not had a raise in a long time, the seperate ops is causing violations of our contract daily, we are still waiting on the payout of the min block hour grievence we won months ago. The only way to a new contract is one that includes the Nic, regardless of what Seham thinks. usapa is appearantly determined to force seperate ops for the foreseeable future, and it is time to end the DOH snipe hunt. Simple as that. The great windfall that I recieve from the Nic is that I get to keep my relative position and status for the rest of my career at LCC. However, long or short that is, remains to be seen. I would like to get paid more, even a number approaching industry standard, instead of the low pay usapa has us all locked into.

Fourth, you are all reading more into ALPA's brief than is there. Just like the 9th, all they are saying is "not ripe".

Fifth, so what if Russ married Elise, other than that is one of many hundreds of West pilots who can easily afford to keep supporting AOL financially.

Sixth, this is not an ultimatum, it is the simple facts of the matter, the Nicolau award, unmodified, to its terms, or get sued, waste money, lose "unquestionably ripe DFR".

 

[CallawayGolf]

Well the East pilots are so accustomed to dealing with crappy, lying management, WHO NEVER SEEM TO HONOR THEIR AGREEMENTS... maybe we've taken a lesson and learned from the "masters"...

Right on cue - when faced with the unquestionable immorality of breaking agreements, we get the "everybody else does it" excuse. It becomes a self-fulfilling certainly if everyone begins to dishonor their agreements because they have the perception that no one honors their agreements, then society at large inevitably falls into total anarchy.

The east pilots and now their wives seem to think that there shouldn’t have been any downside risk from entering into a Transition Agreement or going to Binding Arbitration. If there was no risk or penalty involved when two or more parties come together to conduct business, then there would be no need for an agreement. One party would just unconditionally give to the other party without asking for anything in return. Since this happens so infrequently, we have contracts/agreements/covenants to ensure all parties abide by the agreed upon terms.

I agree with Missfit... as do more wives than you can count. You think the arbitrated NIC is what we must live up to... we think it is an abomination... and no number of Leonidas propaganda pieces will ever change our minds.... Seniority is negotiable!... internal union matter... sorry if it doesn't fit your "lottery-ticket" agenda! And as has been said at least 1000 times... the courts will decide...

Just how many wives do the east pilots have. I'm pretty sure I can count to 5,000 or even 10,000 or 20,000 if I really put my mind to it. Wow there must be a lot of east pilot wives if I can't count them all!

and perhaps, in discovery, we will learn how Leonidas obtained the East pilot's addresses... which I believe is governed under privacy laws!

I get unsolicited mail all the time from entities I never gave my address to. Most addresses are public record and are not protected by any claims to a right to privacy. However, if a law was broken I have no doubt that USAPA will be as agressive as a pit bull in seeing that justice is served. At least $eham will get another big chunk of money because some in the east were bothered by something that was sent in the mail - a RICO suit in the works perhaps?

 

[LSS]

Just how many wives do the east pilots have. I'm pretty sure I can count to 5,000 or even 10,000 or 20,000 if I really put my mind to it. Wow there must be a lot of east pilot wives if I can't count them all!

The point was, which you obviously missed, is there are far more spouses that support their pilot's position than you can imagine, unless you can possibly think the majority do!

That's right... Leonidas... proponent of marital harmony... all else has failed to persuade the East pilots... so let's create a riff between spouses... now that is a class act! NOT!

 

[hp_fa]

Al,

Isn't Holly's publication copyrighted? This is just a well-meaning suggestion that you might want to delete that part of your post.

 

[CallawayGolf]

The point was, which you obviously missed, is there are far more spouses that support their pilot's position than you can imagine, unless you can possibly think the majority do!

That's right... Leonidas... proponent of marital harmony... all else has failed to persuade the East pilots... so let's create a riff between spouses... now that is a class act! NOT!

I didn't miss your point. However, what is the basis for your exaggerated claim? How many east pilot spouses do you know personally by name and have permission to speak for on their behalf? Unless you have something objective and concrete that indicates how the group of east spouses thinks and acts, then you are probably just projecting your beliefs onto a group of people whom you have never by-and-large met and have no way knowing what they think.

Likewise, you and I have no idea as to why the Leonidas mailer was sent to pilots’ homes. So once again you are speaking as if you have inside knowledge about a group whom you have never met and thus are projecting without any authoritative basis to support your claim.

 

[BoeingBoy]

So Says ALPA.

Yep, that's certainly legal precedent alright. ALPA said it so every judge in the country will snap to attention. I'm still waiting for Her Majesty's Barrister to quote where the 9th said that not using the Nic is not a DFR - long wait I guess.

Jim

ps - you guys need to figure out some way to type in a higher pitch if you want to be a believable "wife".