US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

I was not at Wye. But what I am told is furlough protection out of seniority was already on the table from the East. That was a unilateral offer, never to even be countered.

All I want is DOH with conditions and restrictions. I want you all to continue to enjoy your attrition in PHX, and to be able to move East as clear in the USAPA proposal...which by way maybe even goes a little overboard in protecting PHX. But thats ok. The 25% safety valve is something you could have had a little more say in, had you not chosen to sent feces in the mail and very successfully execute a dues boycott for over a year, and intimidate pilots from serving on USAPA committees.

But I hear you. We will in fact never know what was even possible there. To be honest, I would guess even the East Three Wise Men at the Wye meeting had boundaries they could not cross. I really don't know.

But I am strong in my belief you all would have been better to capture our Scope and wait the 8 years for us all to leave. We are now at the halfway point in that exodus, only delayed by my least favorite law, retirement at age 65.

RR

With the Nicolau we have furlough protection. So that is not a give. What the east wanted was DOH/LOS and then we would get furlough protection. Not even a starting point. You guys have always wanted to reorder the list never use the Nicolau list. So the entire Wye river was a none starter because it was not a compromise on the Nicolau it was a redo.

So I guess my answer to what the east was willing to GIVE. Nothing, no compromise, always a TAKE.

The is ZERO evidence of anything being sent through the mail. usapa spend a bunch of money to have that case DISMISSED. If something was sent where is the post master general? Urban myths!

 

[Reed Richards]

Isn't that what East new hires were told in 88/89, 98/99, and again in 2007? That "everything will be wonderful in the future" didn't work out too well. What you're really offering is the Wimpy excuse - let us have the good things today and you can have whatever is left over when we're gone.

Jim

Jim, I was not even told that in 85 at my indoc in Moon Township. My only memory of such tales of grand advancement were from my AF buddies at PI and Peeps Express. But then again, PI thought relative position and the smash down of Empire pilots would advance them all. For other than the poor Empire guys and gals..everything worked out fine for all involved, at least that is what I believe.

I have never heard from one single pilot hired in 88/89, especially 98/99, or for gosh sakes 2007 saying anything like that. That must have been your fond memory of your new hire class at PI! Looks like that everything played out just fine, you eventually made to 737 C/O..a goal I first achieved in 1990.

Rubbish.

RR

 

[Reed Richards]

With the Nicolau we have furlough protection.

That is the real sticking point Clear. You in fact do not have the Nicolau. I asked Prechill a week ago to give me a credible scenario where you would actually get that list. Sound of crickets.

I will now ask you the same question. Give me your honest (not angry) opinion of just how you expect that list to ever be implemented on this property.

Best,

RR

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

RR, would an AAA October 1984 hire ever have involuntarily lost his left seat? If memory serves, when the merger first happened the junior east captain was somewhere in 1985.

 

[AWA320]

With the Nicolau we have furlough protection. So that is not a give. What the east wanted was DOH/LOS and then we would get furlough protection. Not even a starting point. You guys have always wanted to reorder the list never use the Nicolau list. So the entire Wye river was a none starter because it was not a compromise on the Nicolau it was a redo.

So I guess my answer to what the east was willing to GIVE. Nothing, no compromise, always a TAKE.

The is ZERO evidence of anything being sent through the mail. usapa spend a bunch of money to have that case DISMISSED. If something was sent where is the post master general? Urban myths!

They got nothing to offer except lame a$s excuses and promisses of better in the after life. As rr says, he just wants DOH well I just want the arbitration results and isnt that the one we all agreed to accept??????????

AWA320

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

But it is only about 20-25% of the east.

60% of those are F/O's

Your 767 captain still make less than our 320 captains.

BTW. All the west pilots work for the int'l division of the west.

REALLY? I think your facts are a little off! 141.85 top scale AWA NO INT"L OVRD, 144.02 plus INT"L OVERD then theres the a330! And how much is the WEST int'l ovride, forgot you have none! MM! and those 60% f/o's are above any west f/o scale! MM!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

RR, would an AAA October 1984 hire ever have involuntarily lost his left seat? If memory serves, when the merger first happened the junior east captain was somewhere in 1985.

Actually that is a good question, in the steve wolfe era right seat in the 330 paid alot more than left seat in the narrow bodies ,hence a fllood of bidding to the 330 right seat!MM!

 

[Reed Richards]

RR, would an AAA October 1984 hire ever have involuntarily lost his left seat? If memory serves, when the merger first happened the junior east captain was somewhere in 1985.

Lynyrd, not sure of the context of your question. Forgive me.

If you are talking about the PI merger, that was a strange bird. The PI guys wanted relative position, the AAA guys wanted straight DOH. It ended up being an all or nothing battle, kind of like what is going on with us. But DOH won. Because we were all so close in seniority, nobody really "took" anyone's seat. The only conditions and restrictions awarded were short lived.... to the 767 PI pilots.

DOH ended up working out ok on the end, but I always felt the PI merger committee did a disservice to their guys by not going for DOH with C & R. There was a case to be made (not to my liking) that the PI guys had career expectations going forward for quicker advancement. That all was flushed with the actual award.

I don't mean to start any battles on that front, and will admit that was "half my lifetime" ago!

Take care Lynyrd, and maybe with a little clarification I can later actually answer your question without going off track!

RR

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Thanks RR, I'm always inerested in listening to any of the history. I know someone hired by AAA then and have lost touch over the years, last having spoken to him in probably 1982. I was just curious as to his career trajectory in general. I could just pick up the phone, and probably should. We got back in touch through facebook and have traded a few emails, but have not brought up any of the drama here. Our families were close in the past.

 

[cleardirect]

REALLY? I think your facts are a little off! 141.85 top scale AWA NO INT"L OVRD, 144.02 plus INT"L OVERD then theres the a330! And how much is the WEST int'l ovride, forgot you have none! MM! and those 60% f/o's are above any west f/o scale! MM!

Guess you missed that section. International override. Captain $5.33, F/O $3.53

Yes for the what 300-400 WB F/O's what about the other 900 F/O's that make less than the west. Or the 190 F/O's that make about half.

 

[Reed Richards]

I could just pick up the phone, and probably should. We got back in touch through facebook and have traded a few emails, but have not brought up any of the drama here. Our families were close in the past.

That defines so many of my "aviation" relationships Lynyrd. Never enough time, and because of this lifestyle we all tend to spend any available time with only our close families.

Good thing is, my true aviation friends, from USAFA, USAF, USAIR, and USAPA...all tend to do the same thing and understand. We are just as close as ever, with a few years or decades in-between contact.

Best

RR

 

[BoeingBoy]

Yikes. Please give me one example where a judge as imposed a contract in BK under the RLA. Jim, I am not sure about this.

Really, I want to know. I don't know of an instance where that occurred. Just saying the concessions prevented it is not proof. Educate me.

RR

I guess you weren't paying much attention then...

The judge allowed US to abrogate the IAM contract and impose it's own. The IAM ratified the concession agreement after that ruling and US accepted that.

The same judge allowed US to temporally abrogate the pilot's contract while membership voting on LOA 93 was being voted on. It was ratified giving the company the amount of concessions they wanted so again US accepted that instead of abrogating the entire contract.

Then there's the most famous case of about all, which lead to changes in BL law. Lorenzo was allowed to abrogate the contract and impose his own, which he did.

On your other post, it's not surprising that you weren't told that in your new hire class - US was growing significantly slower than PI, which was upgrading people with 4 years to 737/727 captain. When I was hired a decade before the US/PI merger the explosive growth hadn't started yet so I wasn't told that either, so the explosive growth was a pleasant surprise when it started. But the point was that those hired in 88/89 were looking forward to rapid advancement. Little did they know that they'd spend as much as 10 years on furlough and be mostly junior F/O's at 20 years.

What you and others say about not wanting anything the West has is contrary to your demand for DOH. You want to take seniority from the West to make up for the unfortunate plight of many East pilots. All of you pretend that the "C&R's" is like a magic elixir. All USAPA's C&R's will do is slow down the taking from the West (unless there's another big furlough). Heck, the Empire pilots got more protection than you want to give the West pilots.

Jim

 

[john john]

But if you are all so set for retirement or company collapse than you don't need this job right? But if you don't need this job why the big fight to become captain?

If you were a senior employee with experience you would understand the grit of receiving what is due

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Guess you missed that section. International override. Captain $5.33, F/O $3.53

Yes for the what 300-400 WB F/O's what about the other 900 F/O's that make less than the west. Or the 190 F/O's that make about half.

Over 400 f/o's 22% of your list what do you have 4 int'l flights a day? To mexico? Year 15 141.85 93.61 AWA RATES updated 2-10
CAP
GRP1
F/O
159.56
108.98
CAP
GRP2
F/O
144.02
98.37
CAP
GRP3
F/O
124.88
85.29 E-190 f/o 92 now with EAST attrition how long do you think they will stay there 6 mos probably, WEST attrition maybe 6 years!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

If you were a senior employee with experience you would understand the grit of receiving what is due

Key word experience! As in lived amen JJ! MM!