US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/9- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[CallawayGolf]

Both sides should acknowledge that the other side has (at least in their mind) a moral justification for their position. That's just common professionalism in an internal union dispute. Besides, bellicose outbursts about "those naughty reprobates" isn't a very effective legal strategy when presented to competent judges.

I believe USAPA supporters feel morally justified in their minds for not abiding by the NIC in much the same way as Hitler felt morally justified in his own mind for killing six million Jews among other actions he took. A person's own mind isn't a reliable source for determining moral justifications. To try and draw an equivalence between what the East has done in comparison to the West is just a pathetic attempt to justify actions that you know deep down are morally indefensible.

 

[LSS]

I believe USAPA supporters feel morally justified in their minds for not abiding by the NIC in much the same way as Hitler felt morally justified in his own mind for killing six million Jews among other actions he took. A person's own mind isn't a reliable source for determining moral justifications. To try and draw an equivalence between what the East has done in comparison to the West is just a pathetic attempt to justify actions that you know deep down are morally indefensible.

I think to try and draw an equivalence between what the East has done in comparison to killing six million Jews is so out of line... you should be ashamed... Unbelievable!

 

[CallawayGolf]

I think to try and draw an equivalence between what the East has done in comparison to killing six million Jews is so out of line... you should be ashamed... Unbelievable!

Where exactly did I say that those actions were morally equivalent? My point was that a person can't trust their own mind as a means of defining morality because humans have a tendency to justify their immoral actions as if somehow they had a really good reason violating social moralities.

Feeling a bit guilty and hyper-sensitive to the East pilot's immoral actions? That's a step in the right direction.

 

[Metroyet]

I'm sorry, but I can find NO moral justification for crossing a legal picket line and doing struck work. That takes things to a completely new level...high AND low.

Driver B)

Seriously? You can't possibly be that obtuse. Do you honestly believe West pilots are obligated to jeopardize their careers during a strike just to support USAPA and East pilots in their effort to Steal their careers? What about the fact that USAPA was found guilty of DFR to the West? So the proven VICTIMS are morally obligated to steadfastly support an illegal action that irreparably, and improperly harms them via a "legal" strike? You guys are out of your friggin' minds. USAPA is NOT a labor union. It's a vehicle that exists in the mind of a handful of East pilots to deliver them to the DOH promised land. It's a desperate act. Not a union. How can one become a scab for not falling on their sword to support an illegal act of desperation?

If a miracle happened, the planets aligned, and the NMB lost complete control of their mental faculties, and actually released USAPA to strike over an issue that is currently being litigated, you can better believe West pilots will continue to work as if nothing happened. I would applaud them. USAPA has Zero credibility on the West and less than Zero support. Any compliance USAPA has received from West pilots has been solely due to a gun being held to their head. They're paying dues because they have to. On the other hand, most are working tirelessly to ensure USAPAs demise as well. Any chance a West pilot gets to undermine USAPA will be jumped at. If you call that a Labor Union, fine.

The Crazy thing is you seem to really believe USAPA is a credible Union...not the anemic, impotent farce that it really is.

 

[cactusboy53]

I think to try and draw an equivalence between what the East has done in comparison to killing six million Jews is so out of line... you should be ashamed... Unbelievable!

I would have to agree. It's more comparable to attempting to change your name for the express purposes of evading your commitment to a mortgage or car payment. Maybe you saw the terms of the mortgage or car payment afterward, but somehow felt cheated by the conditions. You now wish to renege on the agreed upon process and outcome. Still not morally acceptable.

 

[nic4us]

There are not too many lawyers who are medical doctors, there is a very good reason for this. Specialization.

AOL has one.

But on to a completely different topic.

What is all this speculation on the LOA93 grievence circulating. It appears there is a letter from the company in response to a usapa's request that the arbitrator give them a heads up on the results, so that they can have a round 2 if they do not like what the arbitrator says in the decision.

What is up with these morons? It is called binding arbitration for a reason. You do not get a second hearing if you do not like the results. You are given plenty of opportunity to state your case the first time. Asking for a second chance to make your arguements after seeing the results is akin to a child trying to figure out the best way to lie to their parents when they know they are in trouble.

C'mon. Oh wait judges Graber and Tashima, you need to hear our arguements again, because you obviously did not understand us the first time, otherwise you would not have ruled against us??????


Here is another topic. AOL responded to usapa's request that the company's request be denied. You east folks are not going to like where all this is going. In simplest terms. It is ripe now and we made the statute of limitations.

 

[Freebird]

AOL has one.

But on to a completely different topic.

What is all this speculation on the LOA93 grievence circulating. It appears there is a letter from the company in response to a usapa's request that the arbitrator give them a heads up on the results, so that they can have a round 2 if they do not like what the arbitrator says in the decision.

What is up with these morons? It is called binding arbitration for a reason. You do not get a second hearing if you do not like the results. You are given plenty of opportunity to state your case the first time. Asking for a second chance to make your arguements after seeing the results is akin to a child trying to figure out the best way to lie to their parents when they know they are in trouble.

C'mon. Oh wait judges Graber and Tashima, you need to hear our arguements again, because you obviously did not understand us the first time, otherwise you would not have ruled against us??????


Here is another topic. AOL responded to usapa's request that the company's request be denied. You east folks are not going to like where all this is going. In simplest terms. It is ripe now and we made the statute of limitations.

Nic4us,

Don't spoil their fantasy with the Truth


Usapa = Burrito Supreme

 

[Freebird]

Freebird, Luvn737 and Boeing Boy,

You folks need to read the CBL, it clearly states in Section 3, para C that a duly convened domicile doesn't need to be convened in order for new applicants to be approved for membership. This was standard ALPA language also. You should know that if you were good union pilots.
Silly girls.

Flyer
DOH 1989

SECTION 3- APPLICATION AND APPROVAL FOR MEMBERSHIP
A. All applications for membership shall be on a standard form provided by the Secretary-Treasurer and shall be submitted to the pilot’s Domicile or USAPA Officers or duly designated representatives appointed for such purpose.
B. Each application for membership shall be voted upon at any duly convened Domicile meeting by the members of the Domicile having jurisdiction over the application. An applicant for membership must receive an approval of the majority of those present at the meeting in order to be admitted into membership. When an inactive member, or any pilot specified in paragraph 2. C. (above,) applies for membership in accordance with paragraph 3. A. (above) returns to active line flying his account will be reactivated by the Secretary-Treasurer and all dues and assessments will be charged from the day of his return to line flying.
C. In the event that it is impractical to convene a Duly Convened Domicile meeting to approve new applicants for membership within 30 days, as in Section 3 B above, the Board of Pilot Representatives may take action to accept applicants into membership at a Board of Pilot Representative meeting by a majority vote of the Board.

Soul sister,

We would not have this debate or the past non-compliance of paying dues if the East would have "Manned-Up" to their original agreement. You agreed to it.


Usapa = Dang it all, they tricked me again!

 

[BoeingBoy]

Freebird, Luvn737 and Boeing Boy,

You folks need to read the CBL, it clearly states in Section 3, para C that a duly convened domicile doesn't need to be convened in order for new applicants to be approved for membership. This was standard ALPA language also. You should know that if you were good union pilots.
Silly girls.

Flyer
DOH 1989

You don't happen to have a copy of the original C&B/L's do you. What you quote is the change made after the West pilots quoted the original C&B/L's in their fight to not pay dues since they couldn't become members per the C&B/L's. But being a good union pilot, though, you knew that since you voted on the change.

Jim

 

[traderjake]

I'm sorry, but I can find NO moral justification for crossing a legal picket line and doing struck work. That takes things to a completely new level...high AND low.

Driver B)

I can find NO moral justification for breaking a mutually agreed upon legally binding arbitration.

Do you honestly believe that West pilots are going to stike to help you steal their jobs with a DOH contract?

This isn't Junior High School.

Adults don't make decisions based on name calling and peer pressure.

I'm not going on strike just because you want to.

 

[Phoenix]

I believe USAPA supporters feel morally justified in their minds for not abiding by the NIC in much the same way as Hitler felt morally justified in his own mind for killing six million Jews among other actions he took. A person's own mind isn't a reliable source for determining moral justifications. To try and draw an equivalence between what the East has done in comparison to the West is just a pathetic attempt to justify actions that you know deep down are morally indefensible.

Part of being a professional is not wearing all of one's deepest held feelings on one's sleeve for all to see when it really has no impact. By all means, shout out a deafening drumbeat to the court.... "Those naughty reprobates!" and keep repeating it until you are out of breadth. P.s. Don't forget to point with your finger.

 

[Freebird]

Part of being a professional

Stop right there.

Usapa's 'credibility' and its charter are based on being UNPROFESSIONAL in trying to prop up your career. Your motives are based on dishonor.

Usapa = Unprofessional at best.

 

[luvn737s]

Perhaps some of the USAPA inner circle (tail chasers) can answer this hypothetical: Could west pilots failure to support USAPA (even in the events leading up to a job action) lead to them being thrown out of USAPA, being denied any vote and still being obligated to pay agency fee? Can Cleary interpret the C&BL's as he sees fit without any resistance from the BPR?

Anyone with experience in meglomaniacal dictatorships care to shed light on this?

 

[nic4us]

Perhaps some of the USAPA inner circle (tail chasers) can answer this hypothetical: Could west pilots failure to support USAPA (even in the events leading up to a job action) lead to them being thrown out of USAPA, being denied any vote and still being obligated to pay agency fee? Can Cleary interpret the C&BL's as he sees fit without any resistance from the BPR?

Anyone with experience in meglomaniacal dictatorships care to shed light on this?

Don't know, but the West have been denied open access to the EVP and the Secretary treasurer.

I guess usapa still does not understand that whole DFR obligation yet. Damages trial coming to a union near you.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Perhaps some of the USAPA inner circle (tail chasers) can answer this hypothetical: Could west pilots failure to support USAPA (even in the events leading up to a job action) lead to them being thrown out of USAPA, being denied any vote and still being obligated to pay agency fee? Can Cleary interpret the C&BL's as he sees fit without any resistance from the BPR?

Anyone with experience in meglomaniacal dictatorships care to shed light on this?

Well if they did they might be thrown into that class of member known as a "WRONGDOER"! That last filing gave me the biggest laugh yet , maybe you could make a video on that one too! Have to go Jimmy Swaggart's back on, his guest tonite Jim Bakker, MM!