US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/23- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[nic4us]

Anyway, I just heard the Nic has been declared the official list.

Where you been? That happened in 2007.

 

[Pi brat]

After being corrected by pi I looked at it and it doesn't break out the 4th quarter of 2004 (but it does show a loss for 2004). Just as now, the 4th quarter was reported separately via press release instead of via form 8K like the other quarters.

Jim

Jim and Nic4us-thanks. Ames?

I'm not trying to make a case for who-saved-who, what would have been or anything else. My point is that after May 19 2005 we don't know what would have happened absent a merger, only what did happen with it.

I think most of us agree that career expectations are a huge guess in this business. My thought is that you can guess the worst for a carrier, or the best but you will never know, so why not take what you do know-it's present seniority list and fleet, run it out to the required retirement age and slot the list so that most come close to that line. Put some short time fences up to protect those that slip on the initial list and move on. I think that had Nic done this we would be done now.

But he didn't. He didn't have to, but we are living with the consequences. It is what it is and the road we have taken is a winner-take-all approach and we will see how that turns out. No amount of back and forth can change that now.

 

[Pi brat]

I think it's out of context. Show me one report that says Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, or Charlotte real estate is booming. In fact, show me where any real estate market is booming in any major airline's hub cities. I think we can agree that the recession has effected everyone in this country, granted to varying degrees. It doesn't mean that PHX passenger traffic would have collapsed and made AWA suddenly go from profit to extinction absent a merger. And it doesn't change my original argument that trying to infer one particular outcome would have happened exactly like it did, even if circumstances were different. (Like absent the merger.) All we can say with any certainty is what was happening when the decision to merge occurred.

This is why the argument of basing seniority on what would have happened or will happen in the future doesn't pass the reasonable test. Of course one side will claim their crystal ball is more accurate than the other. Career expectations do not take wildly subjective factors like predicting future events into account.

I agree with your premise, but to take a snapshot of one airline that is at the very bottom of it's history and one that is at it's top doesn't serve them well either. See my other post. What many on here are doing is exactly what you are arguing against. The claim that since AWA was doing great(dubious claim) at the time of the merger, that path would extend to infinity, with 7 year captains forever. Most of us know it doesn't work that way in this business,

 

[nic4us]

Correct me if I'm wrong.....

You weathered the post 911 event by being the first airline to belly up to the Government bar. Remember?

And 3 profitable quarters is not something to crow about.

Well, we didn't liquidate and we've been a thorn in every one's side ever since. Ha!! Your's included.

You are correct. AWA was the first airline to be granted an ATSB loan. We succesfully avoided bankruptcy with the $380 million loan. Many other airlines were denied their loan applications. USAirways recieved $900 million, yet still ended up in bankruptcy court. However, the governments biggest success story from the ATSB program was the AAA/AWA merger. They got their $1,280 million back with interest, and sold their warrants in LCC for $112 million.

I am well aware of the fact that AAA did not liquidate. Actually, I am glad it did not. However, AAA did not survive the merger. It is a gone as AWA, Piedmont, and PSA. We work at LCC now, and yes you have been a thorn in everyones side. Why?

 

[aquagreen73s]

clear you keep trying to claime that the mid to bottom of the east list is screwing the top of the AAA east list..

bottom line is the difference in CAPT and F/O at AAA is about 3 years. Many of us were hired in 86 and 87. vs 84 for those that are captains.
those Captains have benefited since 84 in the left seat vs us in the F/O seat since 87. We don't have to do anything to save there butt/s They have made 45 K or more per year more than us for over 20 years. WE OWE THEM nothing. If we hold out to not have the nic inflicted on us, it's the least they can do. ... the F/O's have taken enough in the shorts. So stop trying to guilt us that we are screwing the senior.

 

[Barrister]

After being corrected by pi I looked at it and it doesn't break out the 4th quarter of 2004 (but it does show a loss for 2004). Just as now, the 4th quarter was reported separately via press release instead of via form 8K like the other quarters.

Jim

Yea Jim, why don't you just come right
out and tell us that the profits from the
East was just "an accounting trick" I know
you are dying to!

NICDOA
NPJB!

 

[767jetz]

to take a snapshot of one airline that is at the very bottom of it's history and one that is at it's top doesn't serve them well either.

The claim that since AWA was doing great(dubious claim) at the time of the merger, that path would extend to infinity, with 7 year captains forever.

I don't have all the answers. Certainly not one that fits the very unique circumstances of your particular combination, with such disparate cultures, histories, fates, etc. On the surface your suggestion seems to reward the east for their age, shooting for a retirement goal, but does not take into account another downsizing, another merger, another recession, etc. While a snapshot in time may not be perfect, it is a finite point, after which all your fates rise and fall together, in a new combined reality. It locks in what has happened in the past so the entire group can move forward together. Anything else introduces speculation on the future.

I still maintain that the time for creative thinking was during the negotiating phase, and now it's time for men to honor their commitments. Much of this is academic anyway since there is no one left to negotiate with. It will be settled by the courts, not here on this or any other forum.

 

[RSVP767]

Deleted

 

[aquagreen73s]

See ya'll in Courtroom 504 next week. Just like old times!

The Court having reviewed the Plaintiff's Motion to Transfer Related Case, Pursuant to
LRCiv 42.1 (Doc. 642) filed on July 27, 2010, and the Plaintiff's Rule 60( B ) Motion for
Relief from the Judgment Dismissing for Lack of Ripeness (Doc. 645) filed on August 6,
2010, along with any applicable response or reply, and good cause appearing,
IT IS ORDERED setting Oral Argument on October 12, 2010 at 10:00 a.m. in front of
Judge Neil V. Wake at 401 W. Washington, Phoenix, Az. 85003 (Courtroom 504).
IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that counsel who reside out-of-state may participate in the
proceedings telephonically by calling Chambers at approximately 5-10
minutes prior to the start of the hearing.
DATED this 4th day of October, 2010.

Neil V. Wake
United States District Judge

 

[nic4us]

See ya'll in Courtroom 504 next week. Just like old times!

The Court having reviewed the Plaintiff's Motion to Transfer Related Case, Pursuant to
LRCiv 42.1 (Doc. 642) filed on July 27, 2010, and the Plaintiff's Rule 60( B ) Motion for
Relief from the Judgment Dismissing for Lack of Ripeness (Doc. 645) filed on August 6,
2010, along with any applicable response or reply, and good cause appearing,
IT IS ORDERED setting Oral Argument on October 12, 2010 at 10:00 a.m. in front of
Judge Neil V. Wake at 401 W. Washington, Phoenix, Az. 85003 (Courtroom 504).
IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that counsel who reside out-of-state may participate in the
proceedings telephonically by calling Chambers approximately 5-10
minutes prior to the start of the hearing.
DATED this 4th day of October, 2010.

Neil V. Wake
United States District Judge

I knew Seham would not have the backbone to show up in person. Damn I wanted to see that look on his face.

 

[767jetz]

IT IS ORDERED setting Oral Argument on October 12, 2010 at 10:00 a.m. in front of
Judge Neil V. Wake

Ouch! That's gonna hurt a few egos at USAPA hq.

This soap opera gets more interesting all the time.

 

[nic4us]

See ya'll in Courtroom 504 next week. Just like old times!

Neil V. Wake
United States District Judge

Aqua, Might want to edit the phone number out of your post.

 

[nic4us]

It really is amusing to see how uninformed you are compared to what you think.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Aqua, Might want to edit the phone number out of your post.

Done!

Where are we going afterwards? Might be a bit early for beers.

 

[nic4us]

Done!

Where are we going afterwards? Might be a bit early for beers.

Just checked my schedule, I am off all week. Must be five O'clock somewhere!