US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/23- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Metroyet]

See ya'll in Courtroom 504 next week. Just like old times!

The Court having reviewed the Plaintiff's Motion to Transfer Related Case, Pursuant to
LRCiv 42.1 (Doc. 642) filed on July 27, 2010, and the Plaintiff's Rule 60( B ) Motion for
Relief from the Judgment Dismissing for Lack of Ripeness (Doc. 645) filed on August 6,
2010, along with any applicable response or reply, and good cause appearing,
IT IS ORDERED setting Oral Argument on October 12, 2010 at 10:00 a.m. in front of
Judge Neil V. Wake at 401 W. Washington, Phoenix, Az. 85003 (Courtroom 504).
IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that counsel who reside out-of-state may participate in the
proceedings telephonically by calling Chambers at approximately 5-10
minutes prior to the start of the hearing.
DATED this 4th day of October, 2010.

Neil V. Wake
United States District Judge

Is that a mushroom cloud over CLT?

 

[BoeingBoy]

so why not take what you do know-it's present seniority list and fleet, run it out to the required retirement age and slot the list so that most come close to that line. Put some short time fences up to protect those that slip on the initial list and move on. I think that had Nic done this we would be done now.

Because, at least in this case it ignores two things. First, you're basing it on an expectation - that the fleets stay static at least as long as the youngest pilot on the list will be around - and second, you ignore what the management of the company says is going to happen to the fleets. Not surprisingly, in this case your method if favorable for the East - ignoring the East fleet reductions (some of which are happening within a few months of the merger and bound by signed agreements) and the West fleet increases (some of which are due within months of the merger and bound by agreements).

As 767jetz said, you really only know one thing - where everybody was on their side (plane/seat). If you're going to assume some future path, you open it up to all the possible paths and who decides which is more accurate? Back to an arbitrator again, who could look at various financial documents and decide which future path was most likely for each of the carriers absent the merger. Sound familiar?

Why not just stick to what is really known - the jobs each side brings to the merger - and go from there? Why not leave guessing about the future completely out of it?

Jim

 

[nic4us]

On a much lighter note.

Welcome back to the 24 West pilot recalls who started class today.

 

[Pi brat]

Because, at least in this case it ignores two things. First, you're basing it on an expectation - that the fleets stay static at least as long as the youngest pilot on the list will be around - and second, you ignore what the management of the company says is going to happen to the fleets. Not surprisingly, in this case your method if favorable for the East - ignoring the East fleet reductions (some of which are happening within a few months of the merger and bound by signed agreements) and the West fleet increases (some of which are due within months of the merger and bound by agreements).

As 767jetz said, you really only know one thing - where everybody was on their side (plane/seat). If you're going to assume some future path, you open it up to all the possible paths and who decides which is more accurate? Back to an arbitrator again, who could look at various financial documents and decide which future path was most likely for each of the carriers absent the merger. Sound familiar?

Why not just stick to what is really known - the jobs each side brings to the merger - and go from there? Why not leave guessing about the future completely out of it?

Jim

Because it leaves the east pilots in their downward trajectory that we saw level out, and it leaves the west pilots in their upward trajectory, that again, we saw level out. Taking static fleet at PID and running them out until retirement puts everyone on a level field and lets them rise or fall with the airline as it shrinks of grows.

Thanks for the jab about it favoring the east (me). It doesn't nearly like DOH does.

Whatever. It didn't happen and it will be the Nic, DOH, stalemate or something yet unseen, so I'm done talking about it.

One last thing though, speaking of airplanes coming and going, how do you figure that it just so happened that all those Ho-Jos painted rat jets appeared in CLT in no time after the merger, just so conveniently occurring as those east planes left the fleet?

 

[Pi brat]

Just checked my schedule, I am off all week. Must be five O'clock somewhere!

Make sure you pick up the tab while you are slapping judge Wake on the back. I hear he likes Iron City. That's a joke, just in case my subtle humor slipped by ya!

 

[Pi brat]

On a much lighter note.

Welcome back to the 24 West pilot recalls who started class today.

I agree, welcome back to all our returning pilots and I hope you are all back soon!

 

[Elevation]

On a much lighter note.

Welcome back to the 24 West pilot recalls who started class today.

WOOT!

 

[A320 Driver]

See ya'll in Courtroom 504 next week. Just like old times!

The Court having reviewed the Plaintiff's Motion to Transfer Related Case, Pursuant to
LRCiv 42.1 (Doc. 642) filed on July 27, 2010, and the Plaintiff's Rule 60( B ) Motion for
Relief from the Judgment Dismissing for Lack of Ripeness (Doc. 645) filed on August 6,
2010, along with any applicable response or reply, and good cause appearing,
IT IS ORDERED setting Oral Argument on October 12, 2010 at 10:00 a.m. in front of
Judge Neil V. Wake at 401 W. Washington, Phoenix, Az. 85003 (Courtroom 504).
IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that counsel who reside out-of-state may participate in the
proceedings telephonically by calling Chambers at approximately 5-10
minutes prior to the start of the hearing.
DATED this 4th day of October, 2010.

Neil V. Wake
United States District Judge

In English please and without accompanying juvenile remarks.

Driver B)

 

[Metroyet]

See ya'll in Courtroom 504 next week. Just like old times!

The Court having reviewed the Plaintiff's Motion to Transfer Related Case, Pursuant to
LRCiv 42.1 (Doc. 642) filed on July 27, 2010, and the Plaintiff's Rule 60( B ) Motion for
Relief from the Judgment Dismissing for Lack of Ripeness (Doc. 645) filed on August 6,
2010, along with any applicable response or reply, and good cause appearing,
IT IS ORDERED setting Oral Argument on October 12, 2010 at 10:00 a.m. in front of
Judge Neil V. Wake at 401 W. Washington, Phoenix, Az. 85003 (Courtroom 504).
IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that counsel who reside out-of-state may participate in the
proceedings telephonically by calling Chambers at approximately 5-10
minutes prior to the start of the hearing.
DATED this 4th day of October, 2010.

Neil V. Wake
United States District Judge

Anybody want to take any bets as to whether or not $e$HAM shows up in person or via phone? How many billable hours, and thousands of dollars could he save his little project "union" if he responded telephonically as is directly offered to him? My guess:

$e$HAM shows up in person...two days early, (you know, to prepare) and hands USAPA yet another unnecessarily massive monthly bill. Frankly, it should be quite telling as to $e$SHAMS actual motivations if he either simply picks up the phone, or marches the whole army out to Phoenix on another Vision Quest.

Should be interesting.

 

[aquagreen73s]

In English please and without accompanying juvenile remarks.

Driver B)

It is in plain English, from the court.

Juvenile? It's amazing that after the tremendous crap pulled by the East - record setting for any one pilot group in the history of aviation - how thin skinned they can be with the least bit of bad news.

 

[cleardirect]

In English please and without accompanying juvenile remarks.

Driver B)

That is the order from the court. Judge Wake is going to decide if he is going to take the company case from Judge Silver and do it himself since the facts are the same as the Addington. He will also discuss the rule 60 ( B ) motion that the Addington is now ripe.

Either way if Wake takes the case or leaves if with Silver. The facts are the same. I almost prefer Silver takes it. The east pilots and Seham whined so bad about Wake that when he and the jury ruled against the east. When he does it again they will just claim bias, again. If a second judge slaps Seham around they can't claim that we hired another judge. Well maybe they will because the east guys can not accept the fact that what Seham is trying to sell was never going to work.

Take a look at the 2 orders Silver has issued so far. Not very kind to Seham. Wake was deferential to the east during the trial, Silver may not be so nice.

 

[A320 Driver]

That is the order from the court. Judge Wake is going to decide if he is going to take the company case from Judge Silver and do it himself since the facts are the same as the Addington. He will also discuss the rule 60 ( B ) motion that the Addington is now ripe.

Either way if Wake takes the case or leaves if with Silver. The facts are the same. I almost prefer Silver takes it. The east pilots and Seham whined so bad about Wake that when he and the jury ruled against the east. When he does it again they will just claim bias, again. If a second judge slaps Seham around they can't claim that we hired another judge. Well maybe they will because the east guys can not accept the fact that what Seham is trying to sell was never going to work.

Take a look at the 2 orders Silver has issued so far. Not very kind to Seham. Wake was deferential to the east during the trial, Silver may not be so nice.

Thank you...

Driver B)

 

[767jetz]

Because it leaves the east pilots in their downward trajectory that we saw level out, and it leaves the west pilots in their upward trajectory, that again, we saw level out.

While I'm not arguing that your method is one way a list could be integrated, I am saying that it is only one of many scenarios, and it assumes a certain path going into the future that no one knows will or would have happened.

You say the east trajectory and the west trajectory leveled out, and hence that is proof of what would have happened because by your theory the same would have happened absent the merger. This is where I have a problem with that particular theory. Who's to say that the east pilot's downward trajectory didn't level out because of the merger. Who's to say the west upward trajectory didn't level of because of the merger. You can't just say 'well it happened so now we know the truth,' because no one knows what would have happened absent the merger to either side, nor do we know what will happen beyond today.

It would take a neutral third party to examine the facts and determine a best guess, which is what Nicolau already did. I might add, without any input from the east except "DOH." It stretches the limits of reasonableness to say, "let's just wait a while longer until our fortunes improve and our standing gives us more of an advantage, and then we'll integrate our lists."

There is no perfect solution. Unfortunately due to circumstances that have unfolded the way they have, there is little else that can be done except let the legal arguing unfold. I don't think there is any more negotiating that will happen. The two sides are cast in stone IMO, and it will either be one or the other.

 

[pitchlow]

Facts? Facts? How can a guess about the future that never happened be a fact? You lists these "facst":
1)HP was growing-agreed, depending on when you look at it. They had to retreat from their trans-con expansion because it didn't work.
2)HP had 3 quarters profit-the link I provide counters that and has Doug Parker saying 2005 would be difficult. The 1st quarter 2005 only had a net profit due to special items.
3)US liquidation would have benefited the industry(including HP)- you don't know that! How much did EA's failure help US? Not much. We will never know as it didn't happen, so it is not a FACT

Make sure facts are really facts.

I too question the concept of projecting a future that never happened as fact. Would have, should have, could have are not facts. I was suppose to be a 3 year wonder, it took 13. Maybe I should file a DFR against Kagel ? What should have happened didn't what really happened did!

 

[767jetz]

what really happened did!

Yes it did... because of the merger. Once that happened, US Airways ceased to exist. As did America West. What remains is a new company. The snapshot used in the Nicolau award was accurate and based solely on facts at the time, not future speculation.