US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/28- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[traderjake]

NIC gave too much to the East.

The Wide Body F/Os should have been slotted below the Group 2 (Airbus and 737) Narrow Body Captains.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

NIC gave too much to the East.

The Wide Body F/Os should have been slotted below the Group 2 (Airbus and 737) Narrow Body Captains.

Actually Nic should have made it DOH, with a permanent fence around all wide body/group II and large international flying out of east bases for East pilots until the last one retired.

 

[traderjake]

Actually Nic should have made it DOH, with a permanent fence around all wide body/group II and large international flying out of east bases for East pilots until the last one retired.

Should the USAir and PSA pilots been permanently fenced off the Piedmont 767s?

Actually that makes you wrong.

 

[A320 Driver]

Should the USAir and PSA pilots been permanently fenced off the Piedmont 767s?

Actually that makes you wrong.

What was a USAir or PSA pilot's career expectation to ever fly one?

Just about ZERO.

Driver B)

 

[luvthe9]

I just don't understand why there is so much discussion about this NIC thing it's long gone and won't see the light of day. You guys should really give it a rest.

 

[cleardirect]

I just don't understand why there is so much discussion about this NIC thing it's long gone and won't see the light of day. You guys should really give it a rest.

Wrong! The only people that think the Nicolau is gone is you and a few hard core east pilots.

The company knows the Nicolau is still the list. The west pilots know the Nicoalu is still the list. ALPA knows the Nicolau is still the list. The Ninth refused to address the thorny issue.

No Nicolau =no contract. I sure hope you thank those senior captains everyday for giving away all that money just so the AFO can throw a tantrum.

When they see they are going to retire on LOA 93 wages and work rules you may just lose that support. After 5 years of waiting around I think they have followed you about as far as they are going to .

Did you happen to watch the crew news from CLT? When Parker said it was going to be another year for a contract. The guy about lost his mind. He is not going to wait another year for a raise. What has usapa been telling you guys? Contract by the end of the year? What did they tell you 2 years ago? Contract in 90 days?

 

[nic4us]

I just don't understand why there is so much discussion about this NIC thing it's long gone and won't see the light of day. You guys should really give it a rest.

I just don't understand why there is so much discussion about this usapa thing, it's DOH mandate was never a legal alternative and will never see the light of day.

You guys should really give it a rest in peace.

Last time anybody checked, the Nic was the only combined seniority list at LCC and usapa has no one willing to negotiate with them over that fact.

Run along now little usapa, you are of no consequence, the grown ups are tireing of your antics.

 

[RSVP767]

Let me get this straight. You are accusing me of stealing "the job you would have had for the next 15 years, but will now never get", by retaining the job I do have and the seniority to hold it for the next 10 years?

That does not even make sense, unless you are saying that my job is the job you would have had. Again, sorry but I think you have been truely misled as to what you would have had. I am glad you have 15 years or more to go, another east poster tells me that 2800 east pilots will be gone by then, and with the 900 or so West retirements, you should be in a position to get that job you would have had.

Nic,

You keep your job either way, NIC or DOH with C&R's. We don't want your jobs. In my view, C&R's should protect every West pilot's position and provide for shared advancement under a growth model, and shared sacrifice under a downsizing. However, NIC gives jobs to the West plain and simple. I can understand most of your arguments and they are valid to an extent in your world. I can empathize with your position. But I have never seen you open up your mind and try to understand the East prediciament (our world). You will never understand it. You could not possibly understand it unless you were on the other side of the fence. And until there is some dialogue in this regard we will remain mired in this stalemate.

You and Clear argue that any middle ground is the result of the West giving something up, all give from the West and no gain. You want to see give and take but that can't happen with the NIC as a starting point as the NIC is a windfall for the West (which your argument illustrates BTW) and by it's nature puts you in the position of having to do all the giving. Just as DOH is perceived as a windfall for the East, seeking a middle ground from DOH as the starting point would require that the East do all the giving while receiving nothing in return.

So, for argument's sake and to promote some productive discussion, let's agree that both NIC and DOH are toxic and unacceptable to our respective sides. And please don't use the argument of our pay differential (non parity) in our seniority dispute. That gap should have been eliminated day one if we had true leadership among our management team. Our management sadly chose to use it as a tool to divide rather than a tool of equality and good will (I think most will agree we do not work for honorable men and women).

Now, with a clean slate, show me something productive. Show me the middle ground.

I'll start:

Let's define Captain as the top 50% of each respective list. How about taking the 'Captain's' (as defined) and integrating them by DOH (or LOS). Then take the F/O's (bottom 50%) and integrate them based on DOH (or LOS). This miantains position and status while respecting the DOH/LOS principle and protecting career expectations to an extent that may be palatable to both sides.

Fire away!

 

[luvthe9]

Wrong! The only people that think the Nicolau is gone is you and a few hard core east pilots.

The company knows the Nicolau is still the list. The west pilots know the Nicoalu is still the list. ALPA knows the Nicolau is still the list. The Ninth refused to address the thorny issue.

No Nicolau =no contract. I sure hope you thank those senior captains everyday for giving away all that money just so the AFO can throw a tantrum.

When they see they are going to retire on LOA 93 wages and work rules you may just lose that support. After 5 years of waiting around I think they have followed you about as far as they are going to .

Did you happen to watch the crew news from CLT? When Parker said it was going to be another year for a contract. The guy about lost his mind. He is not going to wait another year for a raise. What has usapa been telling you guys? Contract by the end of the year? What did they tell you 2 years ago? Contract in 90 days?

Look you guys will get use to a DOH list just like we did with LOA 93, it takes awhile but you get use to it, but keep beating that dead horse!!!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Look you guys will get use to a DOH list just like we did with LOA 93, it takes awhile but you get use to it, but keep beating that dead horse!!!

HEY, LUV them wishing it won't make it happen,"USAPA is as free to abandon it", LOA 84 grievence, MDA, you gota be kidd'n you guage the EAST position by one guy give us a break, You might want to check the ACAPT club, NIC DOA anyway you roll the dice! MM!

 

[cleardirect]

Nic,

You keep your job either way, NIC or DOH with C&R's. We don't want your jobs. In my view, C&R's should protect every West pilot's position and provide for shared advancement under a growth model, and shared sacrifice under a downsizing. However, NIC gives jobs to the West plain and simple. I can understand most of your arguments and they are valid to an extent in your world. I can empathize with your position. But I have never seen you open up your mind and try to understand the East prediciament (our world). You will never understand it. You could not possibly understand it unless you were on the other side of the fence. And until there is some dialogue in this regard we will remain mired in this stalemate.

You and Clear argue that any middle ground is the result of the West giving something up, all give from the West and no gain. You want to see give and take but that can't happen with the NIC as a starting point as the NIC is a windfall for the West (which your argument illustrates BTW) and by it's nature puts you in the position of having to do all the giving. Just as DOH is perceived as a windfall for the East, seeking a middle ground from DOH as the starting point would require that the East do all the giving while receiving nothing in return.

So, for argument's sake and to promote some productive discussion, let's agree that both NIC and DOH are toxic and unacceptable to our respective sides. And please don't use the argument of our pay differential (non parity) in our seniority dispute. That gap should have been eliminated day one if we had true leadership among our management team. Our management sadly chose to use it as a tool to divide rather than a tool of equality and good will (I think most will agree we do not work for honorable men and women).

Now, with a clean slate, show me something productive. Show me the middle ground.

I'll start:

Let's define Captain as the top 50% of each respective list. How about taking the 'Captain's' (as defined) and integrating them by DOH (or LOS). Then take the F/O's (bottom 50%) and integrate them based on DOH (or LOS). This miantains position and status while respecting the DOH/LOS principle and protecting career expectations to an extent that may be palatable to both sides.

Fire away!

So what you want is a complete redo of arbitration. And once again you go back to DOH/LOS. That is dead and unacceptable. Get over it. As I explained in an earlier post. DOH is not the gold standard. Even Wilder said A/M is not DOH.

No I did not agree that Nicolau is toxic and extreme. It is the produce of a third party neutral process that your side had equal input into deciding. Unlike what you and usapa is trying to force on the west.

What you fail to understand is that the east had a chance to explain "your prediciment" to the arbitrator. You had a chance to explain how horrible your career was and that you needed to some how make it up and that the west should pay for your bad choice. He listened and then decided.

As far as your 50% captain idea. You guys do not have 50% captains you are closer to 45% 55% where the west is 55% captain 45%F/O. Just another way that the east tries to take more than your share.

Someone has already explained that the arbitration IS a compromise. The CEL guys that NEVER worked or even interviewed at mainline. Did they receive a windfall? Willing to throw them off the list? The top 517 got a windfall, willing to move all the west pilots up those 517 spots? You see if you get a redo our position is going to be a lot less compromising that it was the first time.

Quick question. What PID would you use? The date the merger took place or use some random date? Who would pay for the lawyers and experts? usapa going to cut the west a check for $1.5 million to redo the arbitration? What would you do if the next one resulted in the same or in your opinion worse? Change unions again? Deny that applied too?

Your word or contracts don't mean much to us since you fail to live up to either.

 

[cleardirect]

HEY, LUV them wishing it won't make it happen,"USAPA is as free to abandon it", LOA 84 grievence, MDA, you gota be kidd'n you guage the EAST position by one guy give us a break, You might want to check the ACAPT club, NIC DOA anyway you roll the dice! MM!

I think you guys should read that little "usapa is as free to abandon it" quote a little close. You may be very disappointed by what it really means. Better yet go find a competent lawyer and ask them what if means.

It's LOA 93 not 84 again disappointment coming your way. How long did it take for usapa to finish that arbitration? Question. Does this count as final and binding arbitration or do you think this is this just a suggestion like the Nicolau? It does not apply to usapa.

MDA. The judge has had the motion for summary judgment for over a month. When is that trial scheduled? Oh not yet. Is there even going to be a trial? What was it? That's right " not ripe" No Nicolau, no harm, no case. BTW Luv says the Nicolau is dead. If that is the case Who cares what the MDA thing is right. Has no effect on us at all. Or maybe the Nicolai is not dead and you all are hoping for some other way around final and binding arbitration.

If the Nic is dead why is the company in court asking if they have to use it? Could it be that the Nic is not dead?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

LUVTHE9, did you catch the latest CLT crew news, The part where DP talks about stand alone and survival, then in the segment before he talks about labor costs being hirer with a joint contract, his contradictions were way to telling ! MM remind you of one of other CEO's?

 

[RSVP767]

Let me get this straight. You are accusing me of stealing "the job you would have had for the next 15 years, but will now never get", by retaining the job I do have and the seniority to hold it for the next 10 years?

That does not even make sense, unless you are saying that my job is the job you would have had. Again, sorry but I think you have been truely misled as to what you would have had. I am glad you have 15 years or more to go, another east poster tells me that 2800 east pilots will be gone by then, and with the 900 or so West retirements, you should be in a position to get that job you would have had.

Nic,

I don't think you understand what I would have had. Let me illustrate it for you.

Hired spring '88. Never furloughed. Capt. Jan '00 to Dec '01. Came within 120 of the street by time of merger (thank you 9/11, economy, management). After our most recent bid I am back to within 320 numbers of Group 2 Left Seat (A320/737). Now, under continued separate ops, it is safe to say I will see the left seat again in roughly two years when our attrition kicks in (if not sooner). Nothing but Blue Skies ahead when the attrition train leaves the station under continued separate ops. I would retire at #22 18 years from now.

Under NIC, throw another 1800 pilots on top of me! Now to be fair, approx. 300 are senior by DOH so actual net loss is 1500 numbers by DOH. Furthermore, let's say half of the 1800 (900) are already Captains and should remain so. Also to consider is the incresed fleet size. However, that still leaves an additional 900 pilots senior to me with SIGNIFICANTLY less LOS. This is where I have a problem. Tell me I am being unreasonable?

That is an additional three to four years waiting for my job. Why would I vote for a contract with NIC? I am just one example. One small cog on the wheel. But, there are many others in the same boat and worse. I am not alone. And BTW, I retire at #700 under NIC. With less bidding power, worse schedules, worse vacation selection, more years on reserve, etc., for the next 18 years under the weight of NIC!

Tell me how do you fare under NIC and when where you hired? How long do you have to go? Inquiring minds want to know.

Ok, fire away, but please don't attack me as if I'm 'whining'. I accept (don't like) the cards that have been delt (except the NIC) and acknowledge my power and responsibility to change what I can or could have. I simply present the facts that are my story.

 

[767jetz]

What was a USAir or PSA pilot's career expectation to ever fly one?

Just about ZERO.

Driver B)

Come on now, 320. I've been hearing alot of this career expectation stuff from you guys lately. But you were the group that lambasted ALPA merger policy for such a "vague" term. You guys shouted that no one knows what the future holds and only what you have today counts. What you guys had "today" at the timr of the merger was a company close to closing the doors with 17year pilots on furlough.

I'm sorry, but it seems like the target keeps changing. One day career expectations is irrelevant. The next it's of utmost importance.

Doesn't "keep what you had" also include furloughs and f/o's that would never see the left seat absent the merger?

This was the same thing during the attempt to merge US and UA in 2000. The east didn't want to hear anything about career expectations with regard to 777, and 747 flying.

Now you guys want someone to give up the seat and career path they already have to give it to someone who you say WOULD have had it eventually.

This back and forth is where you lose people who really try to see SOME moderation or end to the war.