US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/28- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[PullUp]

Jetz,

Yes, true, and I agree. And, I too believe that the West should not be penalized or be forced to pay for our stagnation, however, let me ask you this: What was I.......for 17 years hear at US Airways......just a placeholder so that someone with half the time (LOS), or less, could come in and upgrade sooner, upgrade into widebody equipment they did not have, move off reserve sooner, and bid better schedules. I don't buy that. And honestly, I don't think you would either if you were in our shoes. But given the vast difference in LOS how do you reconcile this. I don't think NIC got it right. While it's all well and good to say relative position is fair, I might normally agree given airlines with similar history. As a profession, if that is what you can still call this job, how can one in a given profession look another 'union brother' in the eye and say your 17 years is worth no more than our 6 month new hire. How can you say "I'm sorry for your misfortune Joe but Dave here who was in grade school while you were flying transport category aircraft at this company, will be upgading into that 330 before you get the chance".

I understand all the arguments the West likes to make but this is principaly and fundemantaly wrong. And maybe it just might come to that, that this is how it will be. But can't you at least acknowledge the fundamental inequity in that? This is why we can't accept the NIC.

Agreed 100%.

 

[767jetz]

But can't you at least acknowledge the fundamental inequity in that?

I can. And I don't have all the answers. No one does. I think you touched on the biggest reason your particular merger is so difficult in the first place, and that is vast difference in LOS. Really this would be a problem in a merger between US and any other airline, due to the excessive stagnation and backward movement, plus the large numbers of mergers that created what we know as USAiways today, since each one of those mergers brought it's own culture, expectations, disappointments, etc.

I think as pilots we tend to bring much ego and "type A" mentality to the table. There is no other profession that I can think of where we are so invested in our status and position that it can become a major pillar of our persona. I guess it's just the nature of the industry and the fact that we can't take our experience with us and be paid commensurate to that elsewhere. How many times in our lives have we met another pilot on the street and asked "what do you fly" in an almost Pavlovian way. It's like the equivalent of dogs sniffing butts. But what if people could stop comparing what they have to the guy next to them, and start comparing what they have today to yesterday and what's possible tomorrow. In my own example, I don't care if the guy to my left has half the years in that I do when it's all said and done. Good for him. I could have quit UA during our bankruptcy and gone to CO when they last hired, and have about what I have today. Maybe even better. What difference does it make. By next year all I care about is that I have the same job with better prospects for the future and more money in the paycheck. But that's just me. One person's opinion.

I do understand your pain, and I see the inequity. I just don't know if there really is a solution. At least not one that doesn't redistribute that pain to someone else. It's a tough call. I know many will say "well, that's why we went to an arbitrator to let a third party decide." But that doesn't take away the sting of the feelings of inequity you mention.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

You assume much. Yes, I was hired at 24 but not with the help of any inside connections. None! I had the qualifications. I was not 'about to be furloghed'. I came within 120 of the street but was never furloughed or scheduled to be furloghed. I agree, nothing you or I say hear matters at all. This will all work out in due time. But I wouldn't hold your breath for NIC.

With 2MIL on the table it is what they don.t say " NO INJUNCTION" as noted by the 9th, ClearD you are correct that pilot in CLT was clearly frustrated with DP's double talk about a contract, maybe you should listen to it again! It aint all about 93, 84 rates kick in( someone will post them if you need clarification) a contract may be well in the late future!

 

[767jetz]

for the life of me, I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

I guess just that there was once a theme from the east (maybe not you in particular) that career expectations don't matter, until suddenly one day they did, but then didn't, but then did again.

Like you said, human nature I suppose.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I can. And I don't have all the answers. No one does. I think you touched on the biggest reason your particular merger is so difficult in the first place, and that is vast difference in LOS. Really this would be a problem in a merger between US and any other airline, due to the excessive stagnation and backward movement, plus the large numbers of mergers that created what we know as USAiways today, since each one of those mergers brought it's own culture, expectations, disappointments, etc.

I think as pilots we tend to bring much ego and "type A" mentality to the table. There is no other profession that I can think of where we are so invested in our status and position that it can become a major pillar of our persona. I guess it's just the nature of the industry and the fact that we can't take our experience with us and be paid commensurate to that elsewhere. How many times in our lives have we met another pilot on the street and asked "what do you fly" in an almost Pavlovian way. It's like the equivalent of dogs sniffing butts. But what if people could stop comparing what they have to the guy next to them, and start comparing what they have today to yesterday and what's possible tomorrow. In my own example, I don't care if the guy to my left has half the years in that I do when it's all said and done. Good for him. I could have quit UA during our bankruptcy and gone to CO when they last hired, and have about what I have today. Maybe even better. What difference does it make. By next year all I care about is that I have the same job with better prospects for the future and more money in the paycheck. But that's just me. One person's opinion.

I do understand your pain, and I see the inequity. I just don't know if there really is a solution. At least not one that doesn't redistribute that pain to someone else. It's a tough call. I know many will say "well, that's why we went to an arbitrator to let a third party decide." But that doesn't take away the sting of the feelings of inequity you mention.

Understanding ones pain is as useless emotion as guilt, lets just put it this way, you quit AWA in 85 get hired the same day at USAIR as an AWA class was hired in 85 same day same time same year , the AWA hire (hired the same day is number 590 ) and now you are number 2400 something, PHX downsizes a guy hired the same day as you is a330 CAPT and you can.t even hold reserve F/O on equipment you brought to the merger! PHX is a DEAD market look around you, realestate values per capita income etc, heck just the % of EAST segments you fly should tell you something, not to mention boarding stats for PHX( don't forget to subtract SWA), doesn.t equal CLT, As for that AFO club it might reach a little deeper than that YBS group is admitting to. Besides the EVP election was only a loose barometer! MM! Like the stones said "tiime is on my side"

 

[RSVP767]

I will get to the numbers later to prove my point.

Under Nicolau you are delayed 1.5 years.


To start with we 1850 pilots. Take out about 250 for non-bidders. 1600 bidders. 55%-45% split for capt/F/O 720 F/O's. Even if Nicolau had placed every west F/O senior to every east F/O it would have delayed you a MAX of 2.4 years. If you add up east attrition (250 per year) I am overstating that. And (50 per year) west attrition that is 300 per year. 720/300= 2.4 years.

But Nicolau did not place all fo the west F/O senior to all east F/O. He ratioed then in at 2 for every 3. So you get 200 of every 300 retirements. (Gee, thanks! And to think we only brought 250 into the equation!) You were about 1000 numbers down the F/O list. 1000/250=4 years. On the Nicolau list you are 1660 down the list. 1660/300=5.5 years.

That is it. You have given away 3 years of a better contract because you were going to be delayed 1.5 years. That is if every west F/O decided to chase every available upgrade every time. If 20% of the west F/O's decide to stay in PHX and not commute. It is closer to 1 year. That's it that is what you guys are all excited about.

Clear,

I have heard this figure before and you may be correct. I still believe it will be a minimum of a 2.5 year delay at best for those of us who are fortunate and have the time to wait it out. However, it's not just about the time to upgrade. It's also about the quality of the life in the years before and after that point. This is affected for the remainder of one's career. But at least we can be thankful for the attrition. Without it we are all stuck for a very long time.

As for the attrition/retirements you have illustrated. Thank you for bringing it up and pointing out the inequity. I think you missed it, but believe me, we are fully aware of it.

Consider this:

Per your numbers (which I agree are in the ball park) we can expect 300 retirements per year on average beginning 2013. Of those 300 the East brings 83% (250/300) while the West brings 17%. (50/300).

With the ratio NIC used (2:1, 2 East to every 1 West) the East will realize 200 of the 300 retirements each year. Or put another way, the East will recover only 80% of the retirement we bring (200/250), or only 67% of total annual retirements (200/300).

Meanwhile, the West will realise 100 of the 300 annual retirements. This equates to 200% of what you bring (100/50), or 33% of total retirements (100/300).

So, to summarize:

The East provides 83% of the total retirements only to gain 80% of those we bring and only 67% of total retirements. In contrast, the West provides 17% of the total retirements while realizing 33% of the total retirements and a full 200% gain in over what you bring.

Let me say that again,

East: Brings 83%, gets 67% (or 80% of what you brought)
West: Brings 17%, gets 33% (or a FULL 200% of what you brought)

Now, I ask you, who is stealing from who?

Do you see the problem here, and why we believe our attrition was not protected. The West will advance at an accelerated rate while the East's advancement is delayed yet again.

So, if it takes another 5 years, we will continue to fight our fight. After all, under Separate Ops we will continue to capture 100% of our attrition!

 

[Phoenix]

..

No I did not agree that Nicolau is toxic and extreme. ..

If you have the salesmanship to convince folks that Nic engenders "peace and harmony"... then you could make a killing in Alaska selling snow to eskimos.

 

[Metroyet]

Rule 60 b. USAPA isn't going to like this one. The company has fixed the "ripeness" issue for AOL

 

[cynic]

Do you see the problem here, and why we believe our attrition was not protected. The West will advance at an accelerated rate while the East's advancement is delayed yet again.

So, if it takes another 5 years, we will continue to fight our fight. After all, under Separate Ops we will continue to capture 100% of our attrition!

If not for the merger you wouldn't have a job at US Airways and would be at the bottom of any list in the industry. The "screw everyone, I got mine" attitude is what is killing this company, industry and country.

 

[cleardirect]

Clear,

I have heard this figure before and you may be correct. I still believe it will be a minimum of a 2.5 year delay at best for those of us who are fortunate and have the time to wait it out. However, it's not just about the time to upgrade. It's also about the quality of the life in the years before and after that point. This is affected for the remainder of one's career. But at least we can be thankful for the attrition. Without it we are all stuck for a very long time.

As for the attrition/retirements you have illustrated. Thank you for bringing it up and pointing out the inequity. I think you missed it, but believe me, we are fully aware of it.

Consider this:

Per your numbers (which I agree are in the ball park) we can expect 300 retirements per year on average beginning 2013. Of those 300 the East brings 83% (250/300) while the West brings 17%. (50/300).

With the ratio NIC used (2:1, 2 East to every 1 West) the East will realize 200 of the 300 retirements each year. Or put another way, the East will recover only 80% of the retirement we bring (200/250), or only 67% of total annual retirements (200/300).

Meanwhile, the West will realise 100 of the 300 annual retirements. This equates to 200% of what you bring (100/50), or 33% of total retirements (100/300).

So, to summarize:

The East provides 83% of the total retirements only to gain 80% of those we bring and only 67% of total retirements. In contrast, the West provides 17% of the total retirements while realizing 33% of the total retirements and a full 200% gain in over what you bring.

Let me say that again,

East: Brings 83%, gets 67% (or 80% of what you brought)
West: Brings 17%, gets 33% (or a FULL 200% of what you brought)

Now, I ask you, who is stealing from who?

Do you see the problem here, and why we believe our attrition was not protected. The West will advance at an accelerated rate while the East's advancement is delayed yet again.

So, if it takes another 5 years, we will continue to fight our fight. After all, under Separate Ops we will continue to capture 100% of our attrition!

So now the argument changes to life style. First it was "I will never upgrade" Now it is "I will upgrade but will never have quality of life".

Well wait your 5 years at LOA 93 wages and work rules. How is that quality of life working out for you?

Well than I guess that the time when Nicolau told you guys that you were not getting DOH/LOS bring something else. That would have been the time to decide that attrition was more valuable than DOH and made a deal. Protect the attrition and agree to ratios. But no you guys thought that you could take it all. LOS would get you everything. Maybe your attrition was not that valuable to you then. But now you are trying to jack up the value.

I don't have my spreadsheet with me but there is a cross over point where it equals out. But either way it is a 50 pilot spread that guys are giving away millions of dollars for. As I said 1.5 years is the delay. That is if every west pilot commutes east to take every opening. Not going to happen.

Now take a look at the % of money that they east is going to get compared to the west. Who is stealing what? Do you think maybe Nicolau looked at all of those factors?

 

[Phoenix]

Rule 60 b. USAPA isn't going to like this one. The company has fixed the "ripeness" issue for AOL

We always knew the 9th should have had Doug on retainer. 🙄

 

[767jetz]

Or put another way, the East will recover only 80% of the retirement we bring (200/250), or only 67% of total annual retirements (200/300).

But how many of those retirements are from the right seat or from medical/other leave? Those retirements don't create any upward movement, so maybe that's why Nicolau structured it that way. If that's the case then wouldn't 80% be pretty close?

 

[767jetz]

Rule 60 b. USAPA isn't going to like this one. The company has fixed the "ripeness" issue for AOL

Not sure I understand this one. Maybe I'm a bit slow this morning. Please explain.

 

[cleardirect]

But how many of those retirements are from the right seat or from medical/other leave? Those retirements don't create any upward movement, so maybe that's why Nicolau structured it that way. If that's the case then wouldn't 80% be pretty close?

You are correct.

Of the 3373 currently listed the east has about 2550 active bidders or about 800 non bidders. 25% Of the seniority list. Right at that 75% (80%) mark. Funny how that worked out isn't it?


Throw in the right seat retirements and the captain spots available because of attrition gets kind of small.

With 250 per year and 800 non bidders it will take 3.2 years just to clean off the chaff.

 

[cleardirect]

Not sure I understand this one. Maybe I'm a bit slow this morning. Please explain.

The last paragraph and conclusion from a filing yesterday.

C. The Court should vacate the dismissal.
This Court should consider the merits of this Rule 60(b ) motion
because there has been a material change in circumstances that were not
of record before the Ninth Circuit. In so doing, it should vacate the
dismissal because, in light of those changed circumstances, this case is
now ripe. Breach of the duty of fair representation must now be litigated.
Moreover, it must be litigated by the two real parties in interest—Plaintiffs
and USAPA. See United States v. Aetna Cas. & Sur. Co., 338 U.S. 366, 382
(1949) (holding that pleadings "should be made to reveal and assert the
actual interest of the plaintiff, and to indicate the interests of any others
in the claim"). To accomplish this procedurally, the Court should vacate
the judgment of dismissal that was predicated on a finding of lack of
ripeness. It can do this because that judgment of dismissal is invalid in
light of the current circumstances—circumstances that changed after the
Ninth Circuit decided the appeal.

CONCLUSION
Released from the constraints of the injunction, USAPA is
manifesting intention to insist on date-of-hire seniority integration.
Because this circumstance and US Airways’ concern about incurring
liability during contract negotiations were not of record during the appeal,
the Ninth Circuit’s decision no longer controls whether this action is
ripe. Surely, the most sensible course now is to transfer the US Airways
declaratory action to this Court, consider Plaintiffs’ Rule 60(b ) motion, and
vacate the judgment of dismissal that was based on lack of ripeness.
Then, this litigation and the US Airways declaratory action can proceed.
Plaintiffs, therefore, respectfully, ask the Court to grant relief accordingly.
Dated this 6th day of August, 2010