US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/28- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

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For all of you Baptiste& Wilder fans out there that think he is the end all be all authority on RLA. You may want to read what he says about A/M integration. This is from the same blog that you all quote as him getting it right about ripeness.

You guys may want to rethink your position on the next merger.

Congress mandates equitable employee seniority integration in airline mergers
January 15, 2008 on 5:14 pm

Also, the Allegheny-Mohawk procedures do not guarantee a particular method of integration. It does not require a date of hire integration, a ratioed integration or another method. Indeed, the CAB in a later decision concerning the Allegheny-Mohawk merger stated specifically that it left the method of integration to resolution by the affected parties in a transaction.

Let's repeat that just so all of you understand.

It does not require a date of hire integration

So I guess even the great Wilder does not believe in the DOH as the "gold Standard" for integration.


What did the MN legislature say about the DAL/NWA merger when they looked into it.

In addition, the Allegheny-Mohawk order required that seniority systems be integrated in a “fair
and equitable manner” and provided mediation and arbitration to resolve disputes over LPPs.
The LPPs, however, required that any adverse impact had to be the result of the merger. Further,
the “fair and equitable” standard was generally regarded to have been met if the procedure
(rather than the outcome) was fair.

DOH is an outcome. DOH is not fair. Even the east pilots admit that. No where does it say an unfair list with C&R. Fair and equitable is decided by an arbitrator not the majority of the pilots from one airline. The procedure was fair. We each had our lawyers and our committees and our neutrals.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Welcome back Jim, hope you had a good time.

Not back home yet. Retirement is another name for 24/7/365 vacation and I'll be heading home about the middle of the month.

Jim

 

[CallawayGolf]

Well, the devil is in the details as they say, but in a word I would consider it and I suspect that many of my east co-workers would as well. Middle ground is middle ground whether you start from one extreme position or the other. Your idea starts with the NIC and attempts to modify it to make it palatable to the easties and this MIGHT fly where an unmodified Nic simply wont.

On the other hand, I see you have already gotten the usual response from the opposite camp on your suggestion here. What a surprise.

Back to lurking...

So the West should meet the East in the middle somewhere between the NIC and DOH? Of course in 2005 both sides were contractually obligated to reach a moderated agreement between the two extremes - a process which resulted in the NIC, which is itself a compromise position. So now the West should start with the already moderated position of the NIC and re-negotiate for something in between the East intransigent position of DOH? And when they do, the East will redefine that position as “extreme” and will keep pressing for DOH.

The liberal judges on the 9th (their staffers really) did a lot of speculating in their opinion about potential contract passage and that perhaps USAPA’s final seniority system won’t cause the West to bring a new DFR claim. Try as they may to legislate from the bench, the NIC will be the only seniority system in a new CBA that won’t bring a new DFR claim. USAPA can either continue to pursue the endless delays for a few more years before the self-help clock runs out, or they can push forward with a new CBA and see what happens in round two of DFR litigation. Of course the latter option would require complicity from Management which will only come if the court offers them a get out of jail free card, so to speak.

 

[Pi brat]

Really! What part of it do they think is extreme?

The 517 east guys at the top of the list? The 2 to 1 ratio of east to west pilots? That furloughed pilots that did not have a job or hope to return to a job went to the bottom.

What part is extreme?

Yep. The first guy it was #1. He said he was in very top of 100 west and that he was afraid it would open the flood gates in PHX to west coast (east guys)commuters in the 517 that would come in on top of him. He said that it was the very junior F/Os that were jumping for joy. For the second guy it was #1 and #3. He said that he lived in Fl and wanted to bid CLT. He figured that Nic was too far towards the west side that he would not have a chance before he retired. Not in depth conversations, just before the van and van ride chatter and two out of 1700 or so doesn't mean much, but it's not nobody as Aqua states. I got a feeling a few more feel that way, they just wouldn't dare speak it to another west guy.

 

[luvn737s]

You got me wondering so I pulled up a few random flights for tomorrow:

CLT-ATL-1 OF 8 WEST
CLT-LAS-3 OF 5 WEST
CLT-SAN-2 OF 2 WEST
CLT-LAX-0 OF 4 WEST
CLT-PHX-2 OF 6 WEST
CLT-SFO-3 OF 5 WEST
CLT-DFW-2 OF 8 WEST
CLT-DEN-2 OF 5 WEST

That doesn't look too random to me. It looks like you were searching only for flights that occasionally operate on west metal. Can this really account for 24% of the entire east flying? And how many cities other than PHL and CLT did US east fly to out of PHX pre-merger?

BTW, do you hang out in BNA, PVD or SYR? Otherwise how would you not see a west airplane there? Or do you not work for US?

There are plenty of ways to NOT do something. Practically infinite !

A look through an OAG will tell the tale.

 

[luvn737s]

. I got a feeling a few more feel that way, they just wouldn't dare speak it to another west guy.

Nah, the west is pretty laid back and open to opinion, but they do want the game to be played by the rules. That's not too much to ask.

From what I remember about the east card drive, that was some serious intimidation. Is USAPA still looking for a new headquarters with a guard tower and razor wire? Any place but somewhere with such a laughable address as Fairview Rd.

 

[Pi brat]

Nah, the west is pretty laid back and open to opinion, but they do want the game to be played by the rules. That's not too much to ask.

From what I remember about the east card drive, that was some serious intimidation. Is USAPA still looking for a new headquarters with a guard tower and razor wire? Any place but somewhere with such a laughable address as Fairview Rd.

I voted for ALPA, was open about it, and nobody said a word to me. The only people I have heard make that claim are west pilots and diehard ALPA loyalists.

 

[Pi brat]

That doesn't look too random to me. It looks like you were searching only for flights that occasionally operate on west metal. Can this really account for 24% of the entire east flying? And how many cities other than PHL and CLT did US east fly to out of PHX pre-merger?




There are plenty of ways to NOT do something. Practically infinite !

A look through an OAG will tell the tale.

Amazing. Where did I say that I was going to do a full accounting of west flying on former east routes? The easiest search was on wings ETC and leave CLT as the starting point and try some cities that I had a clue that west metal went to. You will see that I included a few that had no west metal. I also said I found it hard to believe that the west could be flying 24% of former east flying. It was a random sample. Typical westie, reading more into something.

Since you are studying the OAG, why not give us your breakdown. I guess when you said "seen" you were using the word in a Seehamesk type of way.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

So the West should meet the East in the middle somewhere between the NIC and DOH? Of course in 2005 both sides were contractually obligated to reach a moderated agreement between the two extremes - a process which resulted in the NIC, which is itself a compromise position. So now the West should start with the already moderated position of the NIC and re-negotiate for something in between the East intransigent position of DOH? And when they do, the East will redefine that position as “extreme” and will keep pressing for DOH.

The liberal judges on the 9th (their staffers really) did a lot of speculating in their opinion about potential contract passage and that perhaps USAPA’s final seniority system won’t cause the West to bring a new DFR claim. Try as they may to legislate from the bench, the NIC will be the only seniority system in a new CBA that won’t bring a new DFR claim. USAPA can either continue to pursue the endless delays for a few more years before the self-help clock runs out, or they can push forward with a new CBA and see what happens in round two of DFR litigation. Of course the latter option would require complicity from Management which will only come if the court offers them a get out of jail free card, so to speak.

Complicity from management, delays for a few more YEARS before the self-help clock runs out , round 2 of DFR litigation, alot of variables in that equation, ( so now the liberal staffers are to blame) don't think this franchise will be around in it's present form to see it! Or any type of merged seniority list! MM!

 

[767jetz]

a process which resulted in the NIC, which is itself a compromise position.

This is a fact that many of us tend to forget (or at least overlook) when trying to find ways to appease the east. Myself included.

So now the West should start with the already moderated position of the NIC and re-negotiate for something in between the East intransigent position of DOH? And when they do, the East will redefine that position as “extreme” and will keep pressing for DOH.

Well, if the company's lawsuit results in the court explaining that they are on the hook for the TA and the Nic, and would open themselves to liability in any deviation from the list they already accepted, then this whole thing could soon be over. Of course that's a big IF, and we can only wait to see the result of that.

IMO, if that happens, USAPA will take a few small steps away from Nic so they can call it something else and say their hands were tied. Then they will pass a contract for a vote and hope that it is close enough to Nic to avoid DFR #2. Anything else will result in many more years of LOA 93 as this legal battle drags on for at least 2-3 more years.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

This is a fact that many of us tend to forget (or at least overlook) when trying to find ways to appease the east. Myself included.



Well, if the company's lawsuit results in the court explaining that they are on the hook for the TA and the Nic, and would open themselves to liability in any deviation from the list they already accepted, then this whole thing could soon be over. Of course that's a big IF, and we can only wait to see the result of that.

IMO, if that happens, USAPA will take a few small steps away from Nic so they can call it something else and say their hands were tied. Then they will pass a contract for a vote and hope that it is close enough to Nic to avoid DFR #2. Anything else will result in many more years of LOA 93 as this legal battle drags on for at least 2-3 more years.

GOOD GUESS, since their CBl's are structured in a certain way ALL LEGAL AVENUES would have to have been exhausted( how long do you think that would take). What about the LOA 84 grievence? What about seperate ops? How about MDA, this play isn't even close to intermission, What makes you think USAPA is even scared of a DFR filing? MM! Throw the economy in the mix, rising oil, further industry pressure on consolidation and good ole USAIRWAYS with 8% domestic market, the curtain call will be interesting!

 

[RSVP767]

So what you are saying is what I have been posting. It will take 10 years for me to have the seniority to hold the seat I have been sitting in for over the last 10 years. i.e. you only want to steal my job for 10 years, then I can have it back, months before I retire.

Thanks, but no thanks.

But its ok for you to steal the job I would have had for the next 15 years but will now never get under NIC?

Thanks, but no thanks!!!

 

[fodase]

This Is Perfect

But its ok for you to steal the job I would have had for the next 15 years but will now never get under NIC?

Thanks, but no thanks!!!

See the difference? the west Has the job, the east would have to wait for the job merger or not. The Nic. keeps everyone moving the same pace, usapa staples 85% of west pilots to the easts benefit.

 

[nic4us]

But its ok for you to steal the job I would have had for the next 15 years but will now never get under NIC?

Thanks, but no thanks!!!

Let me get this straight. You are accusing me of stealing "the job you would have had for the next 15 years, but will now never get", by retaining the job I do have and the seniority to hold it for the next 10 years?

That does not even make sense, unless you are saying that my job is the job you would have had. Again, sorry but I think you have been truely misled as to what you would have had. I am glad you have 15 years or more to go, another east poster tells me that 2800 east pilots will be gone by then, and with the 900 or so West retirements, you should be in a position to get that job you would have had.

 

[nic4us]

Nobody on the West feels the Nic is an extreme. Nobody.

Aqua,

I think the Nic is fair to the extreme.

Does that count?