US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/28- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[cynic]

That is an additional three to four years waiting for my job.

Or, you got to keep your actual job thanks to the merger and in exchange you only have to wait three more years to upgrade. That sounds a lot better than being on the street for the last couple years and starting over at the bottom of the pay scale, doesn't it?

 

[767jetz]

However, that still leaves an additional 900 pilots senior to me with SIGNIFICANTLY less LOS. This is where I have a problem. Tell me I am being unreasonable?

Now hold on again. I'm trying to follow this. But after this point I have a problem. Those 900 are now part of a much larger total group of pilots. Plus youare talking like this is all in a vacuum relative to the east. The west also has seats and attrition. So many of those 900 would take upgrades into seats they brought to the merger. Let's say 300-400 by ratio of west to east pilots. That leaves 500 to 600. Not all of which would take left seats at the first opportunity. Add in any growth and let's just call it 500.

Now how long would those 500 delay your upgrade? A year or two? That doesn't sound like the Armageddon you describe. Especially in the context of the precarious situation your airline was in at the time of the merger, plus a large pay raise and work rule improvement to hold you over that year or two. Doesn't sound do unfair in that context. Also is a far cry from the "I'll never get what I had coming to me under Nic" argument.

And BTW, I retire at #700 under NIC.

OK, 700 instead of 22. But of those other 678 positions, how many were brought by the west? If the number is anywhere near 678 captain positions, sounds like you retire in about the same position relative to the new size of your airline?

 

[RSVP767]

OK, 700 instead of 22. But of those other 678 positions, how many were brought by the west? If the number is anywhere near 678 captain positions, sounds like you retire in about the same position relative to the new size of your airline?

Let's see.....assuming no growth or downsize, attrition only........22/3600 or 0.6% vs. 700/5400 or 13%. Not quite the same relative position. Off by a factor of 20 (20x).

The first part of your post is plausible. Two to three years maybee. But still supressed in those other areas/aspects by many with significantly less LOS. Could still easily mean the differencce between reserve and lineholder for years.

 

[prechilill]

Nic,

I don't think you understand what I would have had.

Just because you were hired at USAir in your early twenties doesn't mean that was reality. First off, most of us had to actually have qualifications to get hired at a major, not just an inside connection to get us on before we blew 25 candles out on our cake. You guys don't realize that just because your lottery ticket you got at age 24 now appears to NOT be panning out that is not the fault of the west. So what if your were going to retire at number 22? That means nothing because as you admitted you were about to be furloughed at the time of the merger. It's quite simple, what you feel you are entitled to is different from what others feel, and truthfully, your opinion(s) don't count, only Nicolau's.

 

[cleardirect]

Nic,

I don't think you understand what I would have had. Let me illustrate it for you.

Hired spring '88. Never furloughed. Capt. Jan '00 to Dec '01. Came within 120 of the street by time of merger (thank you 9/11, economy, management). After our most recent bid I am back to within 320 numbers of Group 2 Left Seat (A320/737). Now, under continued separate ops, it is safe to say I will see the left seat again in roughly two years when our attrition kicks in (if not sooner). Nothing but Blue Skies ahead when the attrition train leaves the station under continued separate ops. I would retire at #22 18 years from now.

Under NIC, throw another 1800 pilots on top of me! Now to be fair, approx. 300 are senior by DOH so actual net loss is 1500 numbers by DOH. Furthermore, let's say half of the 1800 (900) are already Captains and should remain so. Also to consider is the incresed fleet size. However, that still leaves an additional 900 pilots senior to me with SIGNIFICANTLY less LOS. This is where I have a problem. Tell me I am being unreasonable?

That is an additional three to four years waiting for my job. Why would I vote for a contract with NIC? I am just one example. One small cog on the wheel. But, there are many others in the same boat and worse. I am not alone. And BTW, I retire at #700 under NIC. With less bidding power, worse schedules, worse vacation selection, more years on reserve, etc., for the next 18 years under the weight of NIC!

Tell me how do you fare under NIC and when where you hired? How long do you have to go? Inquiring minds want to know.

Ok, fire away, but please don't attack me as if I'm 'whining'. I accept (don't like) the cards that have been delt (except the NIC) and acknowledge my power and responsibility to change what I can or could have. I simply present the facts that are my story.

I will get to the numbers later to prove my point.

Under Nicolau you are delayed 1.5 years.


To start with we 1850 pilots. Take out about 250 for non-bidders. 1600 bidders. 55%-45% split for capt/F/O 720 F/O's. Even if Nicolau had placed every west F/O senior to every east F/O it would have delayed you a MAX of 2.4 years. If you add up east attrition (250 per year) I am overstating that. And (50 per year) west attrition that is 300 per year. 720/300= 2.4 years.

But Nicolau did not place all fo the west F/O senior to all east F/O. He ratioed then in at 2 for every 3. So you get 200 of every 300 retirements. You were about 1000 numbers down the F/O list. 1000/250=4 years. On the Nicolau list you are 1660 down the list. 1660/300=5.5 years.

That is it. You have given away 3 years of a better contract because you were going to be delayed 1.5 years. That is if every west F/O decided to chase every available upgrade every time. If 20% of the west F/O's decide to stay in PHX and not commute. It is closer to 1 year. That's it that is what you guys are all excited about.

 

[cleardirect]

My methodology.

Find someone that was hired in 1988 that was born in 1963 and 100 number from furlough. I found a pilot named C.Sommers he was on MED at the time so I will assume that is not you.

Pilot Sommer was 98 from being furlough on the AAA proposed list #3078. I then looked for C.Sommer on the Nicolau list. Found him at number 4627 just junior to R.Hale.

A little comparison of the two:
R.Hale was number 1797, 56 from furlough 710 from the junior west captain.
C. Sommer was number 3078, 98 from furlough 1014 from the junior east captain.

R. Hale went from #1797 to 4626 on the Nicolau list. Losing 2829 numbers.
C. Sommer went from 3078 to 4627 on the Nicolau list. Losing 1549 numbers

Using the east proposed LOS list:
R. Hale goes from 1797 to 6620. Losing 4823 numbers
C. Sommer goes from 3078 to 3300. Losing 222 numbers.
Tell us again which method is a windfall for whom. What a generous offer to accept having 222 west CAPTAINS slotted in senior to you when you were 98 from getting furloughed. Placing about 650 west CAPTAINS junior to you and all of the west F/O’s. What was that about windfall?

So on the Nicolau list C. Sommers is now 1657 from that same junior captain where you started. 1657/300= 5.5 years when attrition kicks in. Stand alone C. Sommers was 1014 from junior captain Lester. 1014/250= 4 years. 1.5 years difference.

It’s your money. It has already been 3 years since the Nicolau was released. You can wait another 6 years (2 years for attrition and 4 years more) to make $125 for captain or you could have had $100-110 since 2008. Then make $160-170-180 when you upgrade a delayed 1-1.5 years.

When you talk about career expectation I have to ask. What were your career expectation in March 2005? Did you expect US Airways to survive so you could wait until 2014 to upgrade? Did you expect to be furloughed sometime in the near future? With a merger did you expect that since you were a junior f/O to continue to be a junior F/O or did you expect to be senior to 75% of the captains at the merged airline? When you were hired in 1988 did you expect to be almost furlough 17 years later or did you expect to be a fairly senior captain? Did you expect to be working for a twice BK airline or expect to be making top dollar? When does expectation catch up with your reality?
I will leave this with what the arbitrator said in the NWA/DAL merger. Also note who the parties to the arbitration are. The pilots of NWA and the pilots of DAL
An integrated list that responds solely to statistical absolutes (for example), with no broader view of the short and long-term impact on career expectations, might be considered nominally fair but realistically inequitable. Too, a process that ignores reality and bypasses facts, that pursues, instead, an illusory notion of “something for everyone,” could hardly be fair. In constructing this list, we have inquired as to where the respective groups8 have been and we have made reasoned judgments as to where they were going. We have attempted, at all times, to recognize reasonable expectations of both parties while, in all instances, rejecting proposals that, however facially logical, resulted in untenable windfalls.

The resulting list neither realizes nor maintains each and every career expectations, nor could it do so. No recitation of career expectations ever includes a merger, and no merger can leave all hopes and plans unaffected. The most that can be said, and it can be said with some assurance in this case, is that the merger of these particular companies will result in a uniquely powerful entity, by virtue of the contributions of both carriers, that is capable of better withstanding the substantial challenges of the current environment than if the Companies had chosen to go it alone.

8 As in all such exercises, the focus here is necessarily on groups, not on any individual pilot. Inevitably,
and unavoidably, there will be perceived disparities and mismatches on individual levels, on both sides,
under the merged list.
The Pilots of Northwest Airlines, Inc.
and The Pilots of Delta Air Lines, Inc.
Page 16 of 32

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I think you guys should read that little "usapa is as free to abandon it" quote a little close. You may be very disappointed by what it really means. Better yet go find a competent lawyer and ask them what if means.

It's LOA 93 not 84 again disappointment coming your way. How long did it take for usapa to finish that arbitration? Question. Does this count as final and binding arbitration or do you think this is this just a suggestion like the Nicolau? It does not apply to usapa.

MDA. The judge has had the motion for summary judgment for over a month. When is that trial scheduled? Oh not yet. Is there even going to be a trial? What was it? That's right " not ripe" No Nicolau, no harm, no case. BTW Luv says the Nicolau is dead. If that is the case Who cares what the MDA thing is right. Has no effect on us at all. Or maybe the Nicolai is not dead and you all are hoping for some other way around final and binding arbitration.

If the Nic is dead why is the company in court asking if they have to use it? Could it be that the Nic is not dead?

A competant lawyer? One that understands ripeness, just for starters, Sorry your Union already employs SEHAM! And your WILDER and BAPTISTE thing really, did he correct you once before?Maybe it isn't the company asking if they have to use it, it might be an assurance to the entity that buys the WEST in a transaction! MM Competant attornies don't need 2MIL to have ripeness explained. Checking out DP's latest CLT crew news was well, his lips sure were moving on the stand alone (won't be good forever) keep costs down seperate( but I am doing the right thing by now wanting a joint contract) talk , MAN that boy has a future in USED CAR sales.

 

[767jetz]

Let's see.....assuming no growth or downsize, attrition only........22/3600 or 0.6% vs. 700/5400 or 13%. Not quite the same relative position. Off by a factor of 20 (20x).

The first part of your post is plausible. Two to three years maybee. But still supressed in those other areas/aspects by many with significantly less LOS. Could still easily mean the differencce between reserve and lineholder for years.

OK I'll buy that argument. But didn't you say you were very close to furlough at one point? After how many years? That means you went back to junior reserve in the right seat, right? When you put it in that perspective it still doesn't sound that bad. Certainly better than starting over somewhere else if it had come to that. I'm not going to start the debate of USAiway's survival. But of all the airlines that did survive, you guys probably had the closest brush with the Grim Reaper than any other. (By some accounts, it was measured in days.) I still maintain that you can't repair that by asking someone from the west to park their careers, the ones they had, until the rest of you guys get back what you had and finish yours. You need to be taking from the company, not from the pilots in the west.

 

[luvn737s]

Clear-

Posts #500 and 501 are the clearest explanation of the matter I have ever seen. It should be required reading for ALL USAPA members. I will print it and carry it with me, since you summarize it far better than I could.


All this for 1.5 years difference. It's like finding out the root cause of the Civil War was someone insulting another farmer's pig.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Clear-

Posts #500 and 501 are the clearest explanation of the matter I have ever seen. It should be required reading for ALL USAPA members. I will print it and carry it with me, since you summarize it far better than I could.


All this for 1.5 years difference. It's like finding out the root cause of the Civil War was someone insulting another farmer's pig.

You should, especially the "uniquely powerful entity part", that would be good for a few laughs especially those highly profitable PHX market! MM! You forgot to explain the part when PHX gets downsized and it will! MM!

 

[RSVP767]

Just because you were hired at USAir in your early twenties doesn't mean that was reality. First off, most of us had to actually have qualifications to get hired at a major, not just an inside connection to get us on before we blew 25 candles out on our cake. You guys don't realize that just because your lottery ticket you got at age 24 now appears to NOT be panning out that is not the fault of the west. So what if your were going to retire at number 22? That means nothing because as you admitted you were about to be furloughed at the time of the merger. It's quite simple, what you feel you are entitled to is different from what others feel, and truthfully, your opinion(s) don't count, only Nicolau's.

You assume much. Yes, I was hired at 24 but not with the help of any inside connections. None! I had the qualifications. I was not 'about to be furloghed'. I came within 120 of the street but was never furloughed or scheduled to be furloghed. I agree, nothing you or I say hear matters at all. This will all work out in due time. But I wouldn't hold your breath for NIC.

 

[767jetz]

You assume much. Yes, I was hired at 24 but not with the help of any inside connections. None! I had the qualifications. I was not 'about to be furloghed'. I came within 120 of the street but was never furloughed or scheduled to be furloghed. I agree, nothing you or I say hear matters at all. This will all work out in due time. But I wouldn't hold your breath for NIC.

Good for you for getting an early start on your career. I was pretty young as well, 27 at TWA and 28 when hired at UAL. No connections either, except for having worked ramp service, smashing bags at JFK one summer for UAL during college. It is a shame that all those years got you within 120 numbers of furlough. That truly is a travesty in every sense of the word. But that is not the fault of the west. Nor is it their responsibility to repair.

The reason I mention that is because I too had great expectations of my career. We all had some form of career roadblock since the tsunami that hit our industry starting in 2001. At the peak, I could have held 320 captain but chose not to commute for the fourth stripe. I could have commuted to the right seat of the 747 or 777 as well. Here I am, still a 767 f/o after all these years. In comes a UA/CO merger. Do I have the right to take all that back from a CO guy just because I feel like I have a right to a certain career expectation? My expectation before the economic fallout is irrelevant. My career expectation on the day before the merger is the only thing that matters going forward. There are guys at CO with far less YOS than me flying 737 and even 767 captain. Should I go ahead of them? Not in my opinion. And I'd be happy to sling their gear if that's the way negotiations turn out. All I want is a significant raise, an equity stake, my current seat, reasonable forward progression in a stable combined company, an end to outsourcing (ie:scope), and a unified pilot group to focus on getting what we deserve from the company for all of our sacrifices.

IMO it's time for the east pilots to "reset" their expectations and perspective.

 

[RSVP767]

OK I'll buy that argument. But didn't you say you were very close to furlough at one point? After how many years? That means you went back to junior reserve in the right seat, right? When you put it in that perspective it still doesn't sound that bad. Certainly better than starting over somewhere else if it had come to that. I'm not going to start the debate of USAiway's survival. But of all the airlines that did survive, you guys probably had the closest brush with the Grim Reaper than any other. (By some accounts, it was measured in days.) I still maintain that you can't repair that by asking someone from the west to park their careers, the ones they had, until the rest of you guys get back what you had and finish yours. You need to be taking from the company, not from the pilots in the west.

Jetz,

Yes, true, and I agree. And, I too believe that the West should not be penalized or be forced to pay for our stagnation, however, let me ask you this: What was I.......for 17 years hear at US Airways......just a placeholder so that someone with half the time (LOS), or less, could come in and upgrade sooner, upgrade into widebody equipment they did not have, move off reserve sooner, and bid better schedules. I don't buy that. And honestly, I don't think you would either if you were in our shoes. But given the vast difference in LOS how do you reconcile this. I don't think NIC got it right. While it's all well and good to say relative position is fair, I might normally agree given airlines with similar history. As a profession, if that is what you can still call this job, how can one in a given profession look another 'union brother' in the eye and say your 17 years is worth no more than our 6 month new hire. How can you say "I'm sorry for your misfortune Joe but Dave here who was in grade school while you were flying transport category aircraft at this company, will be upgading into that 330 before you get the chance".

I understand all the arguments the West likes to make but this is principaly and fundemantaly wrong. And maybe it just might come to that, that this is how it will be. But can't you at least acknowledge the fundamental inequity in that? This is why we can't accept the NIC.

 

[A320 Driver]

Come on now, 320. I've been hearing alot of this career expectation stuff from you guys lately. But you were the group that lambasted ALPA merger policy for such a "vague" term. You guys shouted that no one knows what the future holds and only what you have today counts. What you guys had "today" at the timr of the merger was a company close to closing the doors with 17year pilots on furlough.

I'm sorry, but it seems like the target keeps changing. One day career expectations is irrelevant. The next it's of utmost importance.

Doesn't "keep what you had" also include furloughs and f/o's that would never see the left seat absent the merger?

This was the same thing during the attempt to merge US and UA in 2000. The east didn't want to hear anything about career expectations with regard to 777, and 747 flying.

Now you guys want someone to give up the seat and career path they already have to give it to someone who you say WOULD have had it eventually.

This back and forth is where you lose people who really try to see SOME moderation or end to the war.

LOL , for the life of me, I don't have a clue what you are talking about. I asked a simple question based on ALPA merger policy. A policy, BTW that I supported based on previous mergers. As I'm sure you know, pilot groups support the policy that disadvantages them the least and advances them the most. Just human nature I suppose.

Driver B)

 

[informed]

That is it. You have given away 3 years of a better contract because you were going to be delayed 1.5 years.

East and West pilots will be paid retroactively by the company for any contract that will be accepted. The Kirby proposal was a joke. IE 3 percent raise for west, no scope clause or min aircraft protection, the East pilots taking 3 plus years to equal West vacation days that West gave away scope and job protection for and many other fine print items.

Nothing was given away, it will be owed by the company. Patience and courage.