US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/28- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[luvn737s]

There has been no growth on either side of the fence. I believe what Parker said was that the west is now flying 24% of pre-merger east flying and the east is flying 4% of west flying(Clear's numbers).

So we are to believe that the east flying has dropped 25% and was backfilled by a west operation that saw no growth? That the LAS operation accounted for 25% of the mighty east operation? I haven't seen a west airplane in Syracuse or Providence or Nashville or..., Well just about anywhere but CLT and occasionally ATL or MCO.

24%? You sure about that?

 

[BoeingBoy]

24%? You sure about that?

That's what Parker said although the exact quote would contain "what could be considered East routes." And that's the key - one West metal flight out of six a day on "what could be considered East routes" is the same as all six daily frequencies being flown with West metal.

Also remember that while the entire airline has been shrinking since the merger, the East has lost the most airplanes due to an agreement with GECAS made before the merger was agreed to.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Driver,

You explained it in your previous post, the moving of time. I'm not too found of Trader's style, but he is right, it happened quite a bit after the PI/US merger. Haven't seen Jim in a while but he can explain how it works with our permanent bid system.

It's good to be missed

Since being on my annual Alaska sabbatical starting early last month I've kept up with the reading but not much time for posting. Besides, there's nothing really new to be said until a contract is at least sent out for ratification - then we'll all know what section 22 actually says.

Jim

 

[Benz M-100]

... You mention SOME form of compromise might work. You also mention LOS and others talk about attrition. So with all that said, the following is purely hypothetical. What if USAPA puts a contract out that takes Nic, adds SOME credit for LOS (a ratio of some sort), protects A330 seats that are not growth, addresses attrition from the left seat above the equal point for west attrition, gives everyone a raise somewhere slightly above the west rates, with better work rules and vacation, etc., and maybe even a pay override for those within a few years of retirement and maybe even those who were on furlough? Of course you would have to call it something other than Nic. Would you and the majority you speak of consider that?

Well, the devil is in the details as they say, but in a word I would consider it and I suspect that many of my east co-workers would as well. Middle ground is middle ground whether you start from one extreme position or the other. Your idea starts with the NIC and attempts to modify it to make it palatable to the easties and this MIGHT fly where an unmodified Nic simply wont.

On the other hand, I see you have already gotten the usual response from the opposite camp on your suggestion here. What a surprise.

Back to lurking...

 

[john john]

As ALPA put it, if the company wants this on that fast track they have to learn how to use the word "yes." Again, in the case of DL and now UA, the JCBA comes BEFORE seniority integration.

“If” sounds like the same predicament as US/HP.Negotiating a single CBA or JCBA not sure of the difference. The companies have to negotiate with the union under NMB rules

 

[Hate2fly]

Hate
I see your name is starting to show.

OK so the east will get rid of 1800 pilots. Tell us how many of those are bidders? At the last bid award you had 3373 but only 2568 bidding position. So if one of those 805 (25%) non bidder retires does anyone care? It does not gain you anything. But you guys are still trying to gin up value for nothing.

Now you want to consider 757’s WB? That’s fine then I guess you just took away the east argument that the west had no WB’s. What is it did you have 19 WB total or did you have 50 WB and the west had 15-20.

I did know they paid the same. All of our aircraft pay the same too. SO are all of us WB pilots if you consider 757 WB and the same pay?

Separate ops is only temporary. This airline will be put together sometime. You can call my posts BS but I bring facts.

Your furloughed pilots came back BECAUSE of the merger. Without the merger your BK would have continued at least for a couple more weeks.

If your attrition was so valuable I guess you should have decided that attrition was more valuable than DOH and protected it during arbitration. With 25-35% or more of your attrition coming from non bidders in the next 10 years it is not that valuable.

clear,

The west had 13 757's as of 5/20/2005. The pay was the same as the rest of your equipment. When we bid the widebody back east it is for the pay. They will always pay a premium over the smaller narrow body equipment. In 1992 USAir picked up 34 757's. They paid the same money as our 767's. That means all 50 of our east widebody equipment pays a premium. You westies really need to come out of that Mesa/Trans States mentality. By the way how many 757's does the west have today?

The attrition is extremely valuable to us in the east. We will always protect it because it was earned! We all put decades in this operation and the Captains in the east have stood shoulder to shoulder with us from the day Nicolau got it so wrong. You have know idea what it is like to sit next to the same pilots for 20 to 25 years. Long lasting friendships!

I feel sorry for you guys out west. Too bad your boy wake didn't work out for you. He has a best friend too!

Hate
Over 2800 east pilots will be gone in 14 years///////over 500 on medicals////////200 check airmen not on the bid//////100 on LOA's//100 mil

 

[Pi brat]

So we are to believe that the east flying has dropped 25% and was backfilled by a west operation that saw no growth? That the LAS operation accounted for 25% of the mighty east operation? I haven't seen a west airplane in Syracuse or Providence or Nashville or..., Well just about anywhere but CLT and occasionally ATL or MCO.

24%? You sure about that?
[/quote


I found those numbers hard to believe too, but they are from Parker. Just the other day I saw one of your A320s headed CLT-DFW because the capt was at the podium with all his bling on and just looked at his shoes when I said hello. Also that day were CLT-SAN, CLT-SAC and CLT-PHX. Next time you are in CLT look at anything going to the west coast, most will be west metal. I'm guessing that you guys got the A321s about the time that LAS was pulled down and they had to go somewhere.

 

[Pi brat]

It's good to be missed

Since being on my annual Alaska sabbatical starting early last month I've kept up with the reading but not much time for posting. Besides, there's nothing really new to be said until a contract is at least sent out for ratification - then we'll all know what section 22 actually says.

Jim

Welcome back Jim, hope you had a good time. Good to have our facts go to guy back!

 

[cleardirect]

clear,

The west had 13 757's as of 5/20/2005. The pay was the same as the rest of your equipment. When we bid the widebody back east it is for the pay. They will always pay a premium over the smaller narrow body equipment. In 1992 USAir picked up 34 757's. They paid the same money as our 767's. That means all 50 of our east widebody equipment pays a premium. You westies really need to come out of that Mesa/Trans States mentality. By the way how many 757's does the west have today?

The attrition is extremely valuable to us in the east. We will always protect it because it was earned! We all put decades in this operation and the Captains in the east have stood shoulder to shoulder with us from the day Nicolau got it so wrong. You have know idea what it is like to sit next to the same pilots for 20 to 25 years. Long lasting friendships!

I feel sorry for you guys out west. Too bad your boy wake didn't work out for you. He has a best friend too!

Hate
Over 2800 east pilots will be gone in 14 years///////over 500 on medicals////////200 check airmen not on the bid//////100 on LOA's//100 mil

You did not answer my question. If you consider 757 WB then the west had WB. Kind of shoots your argument that the west did not have any.

I know you keep trying to tell us how valuable your attrition is but it really is not. when it come from non-bidders and F/O's it does not mean anything. 95-99% of our attrition comes from the left seat.

We will always protect it because it was earned!

This phrase always cracks me up. You guys did nothing to earn it except hang around and not get fired. The daily rotation of the earth is the only thing that causes attrition.

sit next to the same pilots for 20 to 25 years

. Here is another just sad statement about the east career. It took 20-25 years to upgrade at a failed airline. That is not normal and trying to force DOH on the west so that we will also have a 20-25 years F/O career so you feel better that you are not the only ones in history is not going to happen.

Under separate ops when attrition kicks our F/O upgrade. Under Nicolau our F/O's upgraded. Under usapa DOH our F/O's stagnate for 10 more years. Enjoy LOA93. You can retire all 2800 on BK wages. Let's see what kind of friends you have when offered a 30-40% pay raise and better work rules. They are already sittin gin the left seat. The only way to see a raise is with a new contract.

 

[cleardirect]

Well, the devil is in the details as they say, but in a word I would consider it and I suspect that many of my east co-workers would as well. Middle ground is middle ground whether you start from one extreme position or the other. Your idea starts with the NIC and attempts to modify it to make it palatable to the easties and this MIGHT fly where an unmodified Nic simply wont.

On the other hand, I see you have already gotten the usual response from the opposite camp on your suggestion here. What a surprise.

Back to lurking...

Still no suggestion what you consider middle ground.

Compromise means everyone gives up something and everyone gets something. The only thing I have seen so far is what the west has to give up so the east can get something.

What is the west going to get that the east is willing to give up?

 

[Pi brat]

So we are to believe that the east flying has dropped 25% and was backfilled by a west operation that saw no growth? That the LAS operation accounted for 25% of the mighty east operation? I haven't seen a west airplane in Syracuse or Providence or Nashville or..., Well just about anywhere but CLT and occasionally ATL or MCO.

24%? You sure about that?

You got me wondering so I pulled up a few random flights for tomorrow:

CLT-ATL-1 OF 8 WEST
CLT-LAS-3 OF 5 WEST
CLT-SAN-2 OF 2 WEST
CLT-LAX-0 OF 4 WEST
CLT-PHX-2 OF 6 WEST
CLT-SFO-3 OF 5 WEST
CLT-DFW-2 OF 8 WEST
CLT-DEN-2 OF 5 WEST

All former east routes as AWA didn't serve CLT. A friend of mine got back on the AB in Jan and he says that at least in CLT they rarely go west. Doesn't really matter as the TA allows is.

BTW, do you hang out in BNA, PVD or SYR? Otherwise how would you not see a west airplane there? Or do you not work for US?

 

[aquagreen73s]

clear,

By the year 2020 we in the east operation retire more pilots than the west has on the payroll.

Well, that's when we'll know that LOA 93 will be gone for good, we'll have a joint contract, and can finally move on.

Enjoy your west operation it is all you are ever going to have. Separate Operations.

Hate

OK.

I'm off for three weeks with another eight days thanks to creative scheduling. I'll be out of the country but still managing "the business." Ya'll be good.

 

[aquagreen73s]

The MAJORITY of easties AND a significant number of westies probably see the extreme positions

Nobody on the West feels the Nic is an extreme. Nobody.

Back to square one I guess.

 

[Pi brat]

Nobody on the West feels the Nic is an extreme. Nobody.

Back to square one I guess.

Wrong. I have had two west captains use just that word.

 

[cleardirect]

Wrong. I have had two west captains use just that word.

Really! What part of it do they think is extreme?

The 517 east guys at the top of the list? The 2 to 1 ratio of east to west pilots? That furloughed pilots that did not have a job or hope to return to a job went to the bottom.

What part is extreme?