US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/28- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[767jetz]

My intuition tells me that the tipping point for the PHX pilots - and the sweet spot for all of us - will be west of DOH and east of Nic.

While I agree to an extent, I'll counter that with my intuition telling me the sweet spot would be further west than the mid point, like 20-80 for example if for no other reason than the fact that a lion's share of any contract improvements will go to the east.

 

[767jetz]

A compromise would indicate some sort of give and take. I have yet to see anything that the east is willing to give. Each one of these things is less than what we have in the Nicolau. What do we get for moving awat from the Nicolau?

I believe that Nicolau knew that the east was going to gain a majority of the contract benefits and balanced that against the seniority. Shifting more seniority and more benefits does nothing for the west.

I agree with you 100%. I'm just thinking out loud to see if there even any support for thinking outside the box. Since most east posters here seem to be of the "hard core" ranks, when I do see some moderation I try to engage to see what they are thinking.

I agree that compromise would have to be both ways. I am just wondering what the point would be that a west pilot would say, "yeah this sux, and yeah we gave more than we ever should have, and if we held fast we probably would win, but the end of a civil war might be worth it." Kind of the same thing I'm wondering of the more moderate east pilots. Not every war ends in justice. Sometimes they just end.

 

[767jetz]

Not seeing the difference between JCBA and Transition Agreement close to the same thing. The contract is still open till it is sign off

I don't know how to make this any more clear. I'm trying to answer the question you posed about what was learned by DL and UA and how things are different. The TA is absolutely not the same thing as a JCBA. The TA is a short term "stand still" agreement to ease the transition from 2 airlines and contracts and seniority lists, into one. All it is supposed to mean is no changes until the JCBA and seniority list are in place, and protocol to make that happen in a timely manner.

The Joint CBA is where UA and CO negotiating committees sit down with the company and come up with what will be the final contract of both pilot groups. In our case it is an 8 week window of intense negotiations. As ALPA put it, if the company wants this on that fast track they have to learn how to use the word "yes." Again, in the case of DL and now UA, the JCBA comes BEFORE seniority integration. That way no one can hold up the process by dragging their feet on the JCBA. NIc would be a done deal if you had a JCBA before you went to negotiation/mediation/arbitration.

You said it yourself. The contract is still open till it is signed off. DL did and UA will have it signed off before any seniority negotiations take place. Why? because no one else believes that seniority is part of a CBA. We don't negotiate seniority like a crew meal. That was something thought up by USAPA. Has it ever been a part of any CBA from any other merger US went through? No of course not.

Again, the Transition Agreement is NOT the JCBA.

 

[Piedmont1984]

While I agree to an extent, I'll counter that with my intuition telling me the sweet spot would be further west than the mid point, like 20-80 for example if for no other reason than the fact that a lion's share of any contract improvements will go to the east.

Contract improvements benefit all, and just as sacrifices made by the east cannot be quantified in a contract, so should not enhancements to other sections be treated as a zero sum game.

Section 22 is the big obstacle. Remember, if the company determines they have immunity, the east can ratify anything they want - and deal with the DFR later.

I would prefer to see a T/A which takes the wind out of any DFR. But prior to that I would prefer to see a Section 22 which gives us more leverage at the negotiating table.

 

[luvthe9]

Is east pilot apathy the source of support for an Ahmadinejad-style leader, and his attempt to crush the west pilot group?

We have no intention of crushing any west pilot, you will keep and be protected in your current position, we don't want your jobs, however you will not take anything away form an east pilot and you will not take ours. Since the merge your own Parker said west flying increasd 27% while east only 8%. You don't get are widebodys either. be patient in 5 years you will own the entire airline, whether you spend millions in all these useless law suits or just by being patient, but go ahead and spend all your families money. You will not take our jobs!!!!

 

[cleardirect]

We have no intention of crushing any west pilot, you will keep and be protected in your current position, we don't want your jobs, however you will not take anything away form an east pilot and you will not take ours. Since the merge your own Parker said west flying increasd 27% while east only 8%. You don't get are widebodys either. be patient in 5 years you will own the entire airline, whether you spend millions in all these useless law suits or just by being patient, but go ahead and spend all your families money. You will not take our jobs!!!!

Parker said it was 24% and 4%. Please try and keep your facts straight.

They are not your WB they are the companies WB.

So what is it 5 years we own the airline or 10 years we own the airline? If it is 5 why are the C&R for 10 years? It is 2019 before the west becomes the majority. Simple math!

BTW they are not your jobs. 1700 of you did not have a job. They came back BECAUSE of the merger.

 

[luvn737s]

Since the merge your own Parker said west flying increasd 27% while east only 8%.

If there are 3 times the amount of block hours out east, wouldn't that approximate about equal growth on a block hour basis?

Also, what percentage of pre-merger pilots were recalled east versus pre-merger west pilots (None of whom I am aware of have received any recall letter). And why is the generalissimo of the pilot's union not going completely ballistic over this?

 

[Pi brat]

If there are 3 times the amount of block hours out east, wouldn't that approximate about equal growth on a block hour basis?

There has been no growth on either side of the fence. I believe what Parker said was that the west is now flying 24% of pre-merger east flying and the east is flying 4% of west flying(Clear's numbers).

 

[Hate2fly]

Parker said it was 24% and 4%. Please try and keep your facts straight.

They are not your WB they are the companies WB.

So what is it 5 years we own the airline or 10 years we own the airline? If it is 5 why are the C&R for 10 years? It is 2019 before the west becomes the majority. Simple math!

BTW they are not your jobs. 1700 of you did not have a job. They came back BECAUSE of the merger.

clear,

By the year 2020 we in the east operation retire more pilots than the west has on the payroll. 1800 plus east pilots will retire based on age 65. 5 years ago when this abortion of a merger was attempted the east had 9 A330's 10 767's and 31 757's for a grand total of 50 wide body airplanes. All my numbers are from the Airline Comparison Table that was on the company website. 5/20/2005. All of our 757's pay the same as a 767 just in case you didn't know that. Every wide body will be flown by the east pilots as long as we remain in separate operations. I have not talked to one pilot in the east that wants this thing put together. We all know that PS and Jake would like to have it together. Who really cares? Life back here continues and every day/month/year puts us all closer to retirement. The west pilots have made this very easy for us back here. Keep posting your bs. You and your buddies have been great sales people for separate operations.

By the way, none of the furloughed pilots came back to this operation because of this merger. COMMENT DELETED BY MODERATOR We all came back here for our east attrition. Period!

Enjoy your west operation it is all you are ever going to have. Separate Operations.

Hate

 

[mikey60]

Kirby is speaking at the training center in PHX tomorrow 8/5 at 12:15 for the pilots. Any chance someone out west

might bring up the big "NIC" question just to hear his spin on it.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

clear,

By the year 2020 we in the east operation retire more pilots than the west has on the payroll. 1800 plus east pilots will retire based on age 65. 5 years ago when this abortion of a merger was attempted the east had 9 A330's 10 767's and 31 757's for a grand total of 50 wide body airplanes. All my numbers are from the Airline Comparison Table that was on the company website. 5/20/2005. All of our 757's pay the same as a 767 just in case you didn't know that. Every wide body will be flown by the east pilots as long as we remain in separate operations. I have not talked to one pilot in the east that wants this thing put together. We all know that PS and Jake would like to have it together. Who really cares? Life back here continues and every day/month/year puts us all closer to retirement. The west pilots have made this very easy for us back here. Keep posting your bs. You and your buddies have been great sales people for separate operations.

By the way, none of the furloughed pilots came back to this operation because of this merger. AWA was a dirt bag operation. We all came back here for our east attrition. Period!

Enjoy your west operation it is all you are ever going to have. Separate Operations.

Hate

HATE, The clear direct approach needs some fine tuning, has DOUG relized I can't continue to use WEST metal to fly EAST routes and make a profit because of min fleet and block hrs now a synergy with EAST EXPANSION would suite the companies needs.PHX a DOA market, 1800 WEST pilots or at least 24% of them have a job due to EAST flying add EAST expansion attrition, NOW DP NEEDS A DEAL( or not FRAGMENTATION in the frey) SEPERATE OPS , will be sealed by LOA 84 grievence, Enjoy that PHL pretzel CLEARD , it is why you have a job! MM!

 

[nycbusdriver]

I suggest that you guys stick with your DOH "gold standard" and get on with it. 2 years and waiting where is my contract?

Well said!

 

[nic4us]

Kirby is speaking at the training center in PHX tomorrow 8/5 at 12:15 for the pilots. Any chance someone out west

might bring up the big "NIC" question just to hear his spin on it.

The first question is going to be Where is Mr. Parker, but I would imagine Kirby will preempt that with an explanation? I really do not know if that room will be packed or empty. But I am sure the company's request for declaratory judgement will be discussed.

Those in attendance can bring up the Nic if they wish, but the only contractually mandated, reached by binding arbitration, accepted and payed for combined seniority list at LCC is the Nic. What else can Kirby add that we do not already know?

 

[cleardirect]

clear,

By the year 2020 we in the east operation retire more pilots than the west has on the payroll. 1800 plus east pilots will retire based on age 65. 5 years ago when this abortion of a merger was attempted the east had 9 A330's 10 767's and 31 757's for a grand total of 50 wide body airplanes. All my numbers are from the Airline Comparison Table that was on the company website. 5/20/2005. All of our 757's pay the same as a 767 just in case you didn't know that. Every wide body will be flown by the east pilots as long as we remain in separate operations. I have not talked to one pilot in the east that wants this thing put together. We all know that PS and Jake would like to have it together. Who really cares? Life back here continues and every day/month/year puts us all closer to retirement. The west pilots have made this very easy for us back here. Keep posting your bs. You and your buddies have been great sales people for separate operations.

By the way, none of the furloughed pilots came back to this operation because of this merger. AWA was a dirt bag operation. We all came back here for our east attrition. Period!

Enjoy your west operation it is all you are ever going to have. Separate Operations.

Hate

Hate
I see your name is starting to show.

OK so the east will get rid of 1800 pilots. Tell us how many of those are bidders? At the last bid award you had 3373 but only 2568 bidding position. So if one of those 805 (25%) non bidder retires does anyone care? It does not gain you anything. But you guys are still trying to gin up value for nothing.

Now you want to consider 757’s WB? That’s fine then I guess you just took away the east argument that the west had no WB’s. What is it did you have 19 WB total or did you have 50 WB and the west had 15-20.

I did know they paid the same. All of our aircraft pay the same too. SO are all of us WB pilots if you consider 757 WB and the same pay?

Separate ops is only temporary. This airline will be put together sometime. You can call my posts BS but I bring facts.

Your furloughed pilots came back BECAUSE of the merger. Without the merger your BK would have continued at least for a couple more weeks.

If your attrition was so valuable I guess you should have decided that attrition was more valuable than DOH and protected it during arbitration. With 25-35% or more of your attrition coming from non bidders in the next 10 years it is not that valuable.

 

[nic4us]

clear,

By the year 2020 we in the east operation retire more pilots than the west has on the payroll. 1800 plus east pilots will retire based on age 65.

By 2020, your kidding me right? You have no idea of the West demographic do you?

I'll give you a hint. By 2020 you might get your DOH contract, because enough West pilots will have retired, and the other 60% being within 5 years of retirement will not give a pile of rats stool.

So what you are saying is what I have been posting. It will take 10 years for me to have the seniority to hold the seat I have been sitting in for over the last 10 years. i.e. you only want to steal my job for 10 years, then I can have it back, months before I retire.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Nic, unaltered, to its terms, is all you are going to get. But you have already been told that countless times before.

BTW, that seperate ops thing is going to go away, along with usapa and its DOH pipe dream.