US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/28- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[767jetz]

What did UAL, CAL, DL, NWA, the cornerstone airlines learn from USAirways, AWA TA sir?

One more thing I thought of as a follow on to my original answer. UA and DL learned to manage the members expectations better than the east MEC did. No one is making "pie in the sky" promises. We are being VERY upfront especially with regard to furloughs for the most junior and pensions for the most senior. The priority being to get the furloughs back asap without disillusioning them into thinking they will jump ahead of pilots currently employed. The other priority is clearly stating that the pensions at UAL are gone for good, but we have an opportunity to extract maximum benefit from the company in pay and work rules right now. Keeping expectations in check is HUGE in keeping everyone focused and unified.

 

[Freighterguynow]

eventually the Nic will be implemented, and since the east has pissed off the West beyond repair, there will be no modifications, no extra fences, no widebody protections, no overrides for long duration f/o's, no domicile protections, no bidding adjustments, nothing but the Nic, unmodified and to its terms.

Simply won't grasp that 2- 1 thingy. Sorry nicie, tail no wag doggie. You can add your quote to the scrap heap of broken West dreams.

 

[Freighterguynow]

But you do want DOH. You just think that there are some set of C&R that make DOH fair. But there is not a set of C&R that can make DOH fair for the west.

The sad thing about all of this. You are are going to have the Nicolau in a contract that you could have had 3-4 years ago.

No, really, we won't.

As I said: DOH = unfair. Period.

I like LOS
I like fences - whatever, but it ain't going to be the Nic.

Hope your card drive actually gets started, you guys need to get this out of your system so we can move on.

 

[nic4us]

Simply won't grasp that 2- 1 thingy. Sorry nicie, tail no wag doggie. You can add that quote to your scrap heap of broken West dreams.

2-1 as in the opinions of 9th circuit judges?

2-1 as in the ratio of east to West pilots?

2-1 as in February 1st?

or 2-1 as in the deficiency an east 190 f/o makes while simultaneously eyeing my position for themselves?

hmmmm.....I think you meant 2-1, as in the odds against usapa and their DOH pipe dream surviving another year!

 

[nic4us]

No, really, we won't.

As I said: DOH = unfair. Period.

I like LOS
I like fences - whatever, but it ain't going to be the Nic.

Hope your card drive actually gets started, you guys need to get this out of your system so we can move on.

Way too little, way too late.

The Nic, unmodified, to its terms.

And you will be lucky to get that without having to reimburse the West for the expenditures we were forced to put out just to get you folks to live up to your end of the bargain.

 

[luvthe9]

Way too little, way too late.

The Nic, unmodified, to its terms.

And you will be lucky to get that without having to reimburse the West for the expenditures we were forced to put out just to get you folks to live up to your end of the bargain.

Quickly, run and find some shade somewhere and drink somrthing cold, preferably non- alcoholic, you becoming delusional.

 

[Barrister]

I will try to "splain it".

Everyones seat is always "in play".

The airline is not a static entity. New aircraft orders, fleet replacements, domicile closures/expansions will always be part of the ongoing bussiness. For example, part of the merger deal was a large contribution from Airbus, in exchange for being the launch customer for the A350. Also, it is no secret that the 737 fleet is going away.

Now, hypothetically, who gets to fly those new aircraft? The previously furloughed guy with less LOS than myself, or me. I say, I have every right to an expectation that I would remain senior to a pilot, who at the time of the merger had far less status within the company, (actually had no status except a recall right).

When the last 737s leave, where do those pilots go? The West captains flying them go below the east furloughs according to usapa.

Another way of putting it, why does the furloughed guy with less LOS all of a sudden have a future within the company that has a much greater expectation than mine? The usapa DOH plan "steals" my future expectation and gives it to the furloughed guy with less LOS, plain and simple.

This same theme carries throughout the entire list. Why does an east reserve f/o all of a sudden get to leapfrog the entire West Captain roster? How do you go from the lowest paid pilot on the property (or even furloughed), to having the seniority to outbid 80% of the West pilot group for the rest of their careers? The answere is (I know the term is inflamatory,but) you "steal" the West pilots seniority.

Your premise is that once you lose your seat at the table....you NEVER get to come back to that same table in the same seat. SURE YOU DO...in our case a left or right seta then you have lost it forever....

 

[Benz M-100]

Way too little, way too late.

The Nic, unmodified, to its terms.

Ahem....you may remember my remarks about "westie hardliners" a few weeks ago (someone gave me some grief about what that actually means....don't remember who and don't care who either!). Well this quote PERSONIFIES exactly what I meant!

Here's what I think:

The MAJORITY of easties AND a significant number of westies probably see the extreme positions (surely we DON'T need to rehash WHAT those are for the gazillointh time, do we?) from either side as equally untenable.

Those who truly want to see a solution to this situation MUST COMPROMISE their hardline positions. From my perspective, most guys on the east are NOT of the hardline "DOH or NOTHING" mindset. HOWEVER, I think it's safe to say that most expect SOME form or credit for LOS AND for the huge concessions that were made in order to make this outfit a "going concern". NIC, in its raw form, LAUGHS at those things and simply WILL NOT PASS MUSTER with the VAST majority of east pilots. Westie hardliners can complain all they want but THAT is the reality.

I, and a HUGE MAJORITY of my closest co-workers, WILL NOT vote for a contract that includes an unmodified NIC. SOME form of compromise is the ONLY way. I see some willingness to do so on the east side, but NONE with the westie hardliners. "It's already decided, we won the arbitration, it's done, it's too late to compromise, it's an integrity thing".... I've heard ALL the rhetoric... and all of it is irrelevant! You want a SOLUTION? COOL!!!!

**********FIND SOME MIDDLE GROUND!!!!!!!!!!!***************​

If you deem that as "not an option" then "don't come bitchin' to me!" (apologies to Billy Joel)

 

[cleardirect]

No, really, we won't.

As I said: DOH = unfair. Period.

I like LOS
I like fences - whatever, but it ain't going to be the Nic.

Hope your card drive actually gets started, you guys need to get this out of your system so we can move on.

LOS is still very nearly DOH. It still staples 80% of the west pilots below Monda.

Take a look at the AAA proposal. From Monda up he is 3176 on the AAA list. On the proposed combined list he is 3405. A grand total of 229 west pilot integrated into the entire east active pilot list.

The west pilot goes from 300 on the the list to 3400 on a combined list. From 16% on the west list to 50% on a combined list. Does any of that sound like a windfall to the east pilots?

DOH is only a little worse.

 

[767jetz]

Here's what I think:

The MAJORITY of easties AND a significant number of westies probably see the extreme positions from either side as equally untenable.

Those who truly want to see a solution to this situation MUST COMPROMISE their hardline positions.

HOWEVER, I think it's safe to say that most expect SOME form or credit for LOS AND for the huge concessions that were made in order to make this outfit a "going concern".

I, and a HUGE MAJORITY of my closest co-workers, WILL NOT vote for a contract that includes an unmodified NIC. SOME form of compromise is the ONLY way.

I posed some suggestions in the recent past but was basically attacked by the "hardliners" for not having a clue and not understanding the east etc. etc. So since you sound like a more moderate person I'll present them again to you.

My view is that legally speaking USAPA takes a risk for every step away from Nic in the form of a DFR suit. The trick is to find the point where the west figures it's not worth the time money and effort to fight it further. In other words, DFR proof. No one knows where that point is since there's no one to negotiate with, so it becomes shakey ground. You mention SOME form of compromise might work. You also mention LOS and others talk about attrition. So with all that said, the following is purely hypothetical. What if USAPA puts a contract out that takes Nic, adds SOME credit for LOS (a ratio of some sort), protects A330 seats that are not growth, addresses attrition from the left seat above the equal point for west attrition, gives everyone a raise somewhere slightly above the west rates, with better work rules and vacation, etc., and maybe even a pay override for those within a few years of retirement and maybe even those who were on furlough? Of course you would have to call it something other than Nic. Would you and the majority you speak of consider that?

The only problem I have with your quote above is the part about credit for concessions made to make US a "going concern." I don't even want to debate whether US even was a going concern. But let's just assume it was for the sake of this discussion. While we all made huge sacrifices to make our airlines survive the last 9 years, you can't get credit for it from the west. That is between you and the company, not the west pilots. That can come in the form of pay raises, but not seniority at the expense of the west. UA's MEC and Merger Committee members have been clear with us that our merger and the potential rewards are not about repairing any perceived past injustices. There will be no restoration of pensions, etc etc.

Just wondering what kind of compromises are palatable to someone like yourself.

 

[Freighterguynow]

And you will be lucky to get that without having to reimburse the West for the expenditures we were forced to put out just to get you folks to live up to your end of the bargain.

Right up to DISMISSAL .... scrap heap

 

[Piedmont1984]

While it is true that USAPA has no official entity to negotiate or compromise with - that does ot preclude the association from getting a reliable measure in the event of several Section 22 scenarios.

Remember the Wilson poll? In just a week or two we could ascertain the level of support, with a base by base breakdown, for every Section 22 combination from straight DOH to straight NIC.

My intuition tells me that the tipping point for the PHX pilots - and the sweet spot for all of us - will be west of DOH and east of Nic.

 

[cleardirect]

I posed some suggestions in the recent past but was basically attacked by the "hardliners" for not having a clue and not understanding the east etc. etc. So since you sound like a more moderate person I'll present them again to you.

My view is that legally speaking USAPA takes a risk for every step away from Nic in the form of a DFR suit. The trick is to find the point where the west figures it's not worth the time money and effort to fight it further. In other words, DFR proof. No one knows where that point is since there's no one to negotiate with, so it becomes shakey ground. You mention SOME form of compromise might work. You also mention LOS and others talk about attrition. So with all that said, the following is purely hypothetical. What if USAPA puts a contract out that takes Nic, adds SOME credit for LOS (a ratio of some sort), protects A330 seats that are not growth, addresses attrition from the left seat above the equal point for west attrition, gives everyone a raise somewhere slightly above the west rates, with better work rules and vacation, etc., and maybe even a pay override for those within a few years of retirement and maybe even those who were on furlough? Of course you would have to call it something other than Nic. Would you and the majority you speak of consider that?

The only problem I have with your quote above is the part about credit for concessions made to make US a "going concern." I don't even want to debate whether US even was a going concern. But let's just assume it was for the sake of this discussion. While we all made huge sacrifices to make our airlines survive the last 9 years, you can't get credit for it from the west. That is between you and the company, not the west pilots. That can come in the form of pay raises, but not seniority at the expense of the west. UA's MEC and Merger Committee members have been clear with us that our merger and the potential rewards are not about repairing any perceived past injustices. There will be no restoration of pensions, etc etc.

Just wondering what kind of compromises are palatable to someone like yourself.

Jets,

I agree with you. That is exactly correct, that every step away from Nicolau is a step to DFR. Correct, there is no one to negotiate that with from the west.

I appreciate you looking for compromise. But here is where you lose me.

Your compromise suggestions are:
Give some form of credit for LOS service.
Protect original 330’s
Protect attrition from the east left seat.
Everyone gets a raise
Everyone gets better vacation and work rules
Pay override close to retirement
Extra money for those furloughed

The problem is that each one of those is a give from the west and a take for the east.

LOS would shift west pilots further down the Nicolau list.
Protect the original 330’s, not in the Nicolau and growth 330’s should be shared anyway. What do we get?
Protect attrition from the left seat. Maybe but the east wants to protect ALL attrition from all seats.
Raises, the east is already getting the majority of the money and benefits. Just bringing them up to us is about 80-90% of the last offer.
Better vacation, The east is going to get an additional 10 days while the west gets nothing. That is already agreed to.
Pay override. Again more money shifted to the east from the west.
More money for the furloughs. Again more money shifted to the east from the west.

A compromise would indicate some sort of give and take. I have yet to see anything that the east is willing to give. Each one of these things is less than what we have in the Nicolau. What do we get for moving away from the Nicolau?

I believe that Nicolau knew that the east was going to gain a majority of the contract benefits and balanced that against the seniority. Shifting more seniority and more benefits does nothing for the west.

 

[luvn737s]

When Cleary makes no attempt to even feign interest in finding middle ground with the west pilots, why would anyone hold hope that anything but stalemate lies ahead? Dictatorial egomaniacs like him have never changed, and the lack of outcry from the east implies they are happy with his strategy.

First DOH would have to be removed from the constitution. Any rumors of that happening? Then USAPA would have to committ to coming to PHX and holding many many town hall type meetings to solicit real solutions. Again, any reservations made for PHX hotels for Cleary and his henchmen?

The US east pilots are satisfied with their majority and don't feel the need to do anything. The west pilots have interrupted their juggernaut and with reason not appearing to workon the east pilot group, they have had to resort to the court.

Is east pilot apathy the source of support for an Ahmadinejad-style leader, and his attempt to crush the west pilot group?

 

[john john]

Since a JCBA is a prerequisite to starting negotiations between the merger committees, there is no road beyond a final and binding list. As soon as the JCBA is ratified a clock starts. Negotiate, mediate, and arbitrate if necessary. The JCBA stands ready to go into effect immediately upon seniority resolution, be it by mutual agreement or final and binding arbitration.

Not seeing the difference between JCBA and Transition Agreement close to the same thing. The contract is still open till it is sign off