US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/28- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Pi brat]

And you guys can stay on LOA 93 until the same day.

Your seniority is for sale. You guys keep paying for it everyday. It is like the rent to own place. You guys keep paying the rent and eventually you end up paying way more than it was ever worth.

Pot, meet kettle.

Clear, our TA allows just that, each group can be as stupid as they wish. If the east decides that LOA 93 is better than the Nic, we can stay on it. Your side didn't want to give in on the Nic and stood fast. Your right, but so far you haven't given yourselves a 3 year fence that you didn't want and it looks like it will be at least a five year fence, and that's if the final outcome goes your way.

Both sides renting to own crappy contracts on their own side of the fence.

 

[snapthis]

Well it's finaly all over for the west, we have no more reason to discuss the Addington ordeal, game set and match. (that is unless the supreme court is not to busy. ) Let's all say it together DENIED.!!!!

YAWN....Carry on, make it ripe. :wacko:

 

[informed]

Why did it take so long for usapa to finish that grievance? Argued in Feb. Not completed until June. I would think for something as important to your guys as that usapa would have been all over it. Pushing hard to get it done. Could it be that they knew they had a loser case and just want to string the loyalists along a little longer?

The company caused quite a delay by their surprise witness. From the USAPA update at that time;

"Arbitrator Kasher has granted the Union two weeks to review the testimony of the surprise expert bankruptcy witness who testified Wednesday. If USAPA decides to hire a bankruptcy attorney as a result of that review, Mr. Kasher has agreed to re-open the record for the sole purpose of adding testimony in this area. Due to his very limited availability, the arbitrator ordered the parties to conduct a deposition of a bankruptcy attorney and submit the transcript for his review instead of reconvening the hearing."

 

[Al Legheny]

YAWN....Carry on, make it ripe. :wacko:

Perhaps with the recent decision by the 9th it is time to float the trial balloon floated by the company to the JNC after the Nicolau award was published. Permanent separate operations.

Judge Wake's injunction did not allow for separate operations but with the imminent mandate and dismissal pending this idea might be the reasonable alternative to attempting to combine these groups. As I recall the proposal to the JNC, and this was relayed to me so I am not sure it is correct, was that the East pilots would get parity and the agreement would be for pay only and last 3 years while this seniority issue could be worked out under ALPA. ALPA's merger policy does not allow separate contracts only a single joint contract so this avenue was not pursued.

USAPA is not constrained by the requirement for a single bargaining agreement and USAPA as the bargaining agent can modify the transition agreement, with the agreement of the company. Since the company proposed this to the JNC it might be time to resurrect this trial balloon.

I have no idea what the DFR issues would be but the basic requirements for proof of a violation of the Duty of Fair Representation are
arbitrary, discriminatory, or in bad faith. I am no going to get involved in that argument

 

[cleardirect]

I see the clear plan coming together if we ever do merge with AA. If they lose their pension, which is acceptable to you, then you are going to say their careers were in the toilet, take a snapshot of the point where they might go into BK, (acceptable to you) then hard charge the plan to put them on the bottom. This is what we are up against. More bar lowering. Unbelievable, unacceptable.

DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!!!!
I did not say that AA losing their pension was acceptable to me. I said that was what Parker said before a merger.

How is it that I can put anyone at the bottom of any list? usapa is steering this garbage boat. It will be the east that will be in charge of an integration. We all know how well you guys ran the last one.

So what happens if we do merge with AA and you don't get what you want? No majority you going to accept whatever the majority wants?

 

[Freighterguynow]

Another way of putting it, why does the furloughed guy with less LOS all of a sudden have a future within the company that has a much greater expectation than mine?

What you brought to the merger - right? You guys love that one. Then, you get all heated when it comes winging back at ya.


The future of PHX looks, at best, grim. Once the TA goes away expect a 20% reduction maybe 50% if Captain Underpants was right. You had no expectation other than flying narrow bodies in and of PHX all day yet, NOW you insist on being able to bid East and take east jobs.

Another way of putting it - why would the East pilot group vote 'yes' to that? I suggest you put yourself in the position of an East pilot and start coming up with scenarios East pilots might actually be willing to pass membership ratification.

That, or get plenty comfortable out west. For now.

 

[cleardirect]

What you brought to the merger - right? You guys love that one. Then, you get all heated when it comes winging back at ya.


The future of PHX looks, at best, grim. Once the TA goes away expect a 20% reduction maybe 50% if Captain Underpants was right. You had no expectation other than flying narrow bodies in and of PHX all day yet, NOW you insist on being able to bid East and take east jobs.

Another way of putting it - why would the East pilot group vote 'yes' to that? I suggest you put yourself in the position of an East pilot and start coming up with scenarios East pilots might actually be willing to pass membership ratification.

That, or get plenty comfortable out west. For now.

I suggest that you guys stick with your DOH "gold standard" and get on with it. 2 years and waiting where is my contract?

 

[luvn737s]

Perhaps with the recent decision by the 9th it is time to float the trial balloon floated by the company to the JNC after the Nicolau award was published. Permanent separate operations.

There would need to be two equal pilot group representitives and that's not allowed. USAPA can only pretend to protect the interests of the west pilots for so long, then they will be asked to move along and make way for a union that can actually do what it's paid to do.

 

[snapthis]

Perhaps with the recent decision by the 9th it is time to float the trial balloon floated by the company to the JNC after the Nicolau award was published. Permanent separate operationsJudge Wake's injunction did not allow for separate operations but with the imminent mandate and dismissal pending this idea might be the reasonable alternative to attempting to combine these groups. As I recall the proposal to the JNC, and this was relayed to me so I am not sure it is correct, was that the East pilots would get parity and the agreement would be for pay only and last 3 years while this seniority issue could be worked out under ALPA. ALPA's merger policy does not allow separate contracts only a single joint contract so this avenue was not pursued..



USAPA is not constrained by the requirement for a single bargaining agreement and USAPA as the bargaining agent can modify the transition agreement, with the agreement of the company. Since the company proposed this to the JNC it might be time to resurrect this trial balloon.

I have no idea what the DFR issues would be but the basic requirements for proof of a violation of the Duty of Fair Representation are
arbitrary, discriminatory, or in bad faith. I am no going to get involved in that argument

Interesting thoughts needless to say. I don't think the company is interested in seperate operations based on recent comments and court filings.

 

[A320 Driver]

Driver,

You explained it in your previous post, the moving of time. I'm not too found of Trader's style, but he is right, it happened quite a bit after the PI/US merger. Haven't seen Jim in a while but he can explain how it works with our permanent bid system.

I agree and won't argue that point, however his post made it sound like an East F/O with simply his system seniority number could walk in and "steal" a Captain position from a West pilot. It is a good deal more complicated than that but I will concede the point.

I understand how this works. I was a blockholding 727 Captain and went to a very junior 737 Captain reserve. I held my seat, but just barely. But it didn't happen over night and I wasn't immediately removed from my other left seat job. That is why I stated in the other post that you have to be VERY careful with conditions and restrictions. Unless they are solid, they won't hold up.

Jim did witness this process first hand, but it started with Colodny blowing his boys a kiss and allowing it. It is not something a pilot group could accomplish on it's own.

Thanks for the posts. I really do enjoy these discussions...

Driver B)

 

[Freighterguynow]

USAPA NEWS FLASH



Ninth Circuit Court Rules In Favor of USAPA and Denies Plaintiffs’ Motion

Yesterday, August 3, 2010, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals denied a motion to stay the "mandate."

Today's ruling clears the way for the final action of the Ninth Circuit to actually issue the mandate, which is expected to happen within the next seven days. At that time the district court will be required to dismiss the remaining portions of the Addington case.

 

[767jetz]

DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!!!!
I did not say that AA losing their pension was acceptable to me. I said that was what Parker said before a merger.

Clear, brace yourself. Now it could be repeated over and over as if you did say it. And if you eventually defend yourself you may be accused of having a vendetta against whoever put the words in your mouth in the first place. Happens all the time. You may want to save this page for easy reference in the future.

 

[Freighterguynow]

I suggest that you guys stick with your DOH "gold standard" and get on with it. 2 years and waiting where is my contract?

Don't lump me in with the DOH crowd. Never worn a USPA yellow lanyard, don't think DOH is fair to the West but that Nic is a nonstarter 2 years or 20.

 

[luvn737s]

And Luvn 737 s assertions that all aircraft types will pay the same in the new contract. So the new industry standard according to the west is an A 330 pays the same as a 737. Are you really sure the other airlines are thanking you for this too? You guys are really forging ahead in the new airline era

Wait until your beloved Cleary comes spinning this exact scenario to you.

It will go something like this, " The overriding priority in these negotiations was securing the seniority rights for all our members. As such we felt a short term contract would permit this, while beginning negotiations on the next contract where we will make significant gains in all other contract areas. The perfect is the enemy of the good and we should not allow this opportunity to put the integration behind us to pass by, just because of status-quo or slight decline in pay and benefits. Capturing the attrition that will be coming in the next few years is a de-facto raise in itself and this contract secures that attrition for the majority of our members. For this and many other reasons, I urge you to vote yes on the upcoming TA. Long live USAPA."

The east will cry out "Yippee, we screwed the west"

Doug parker will cry out "Yippee, I've got no more fleet minimums and they gave up furlough protection too, and all before a single pilot got actually retrained. Debbie, call the leasing company. Tell them we've got 40 planes gassed and ready to head to Marana. Yeah, Cleary, we'll get right on them negotiations, HA! HA!"

The west will say, "Well, I guess we should have gotten started on replacing USAPA sooner."

 

[Black Swan]

Clear, brace yourself. Now it could be repeated over and over as if you did say it. And if you eventually defend yourself you may be accused of having a vendetta against whoever put the words in your mouth in the first place. Happens all the time. You may want to save this page for easy reference in the future.

I see where this is going. You are going to trademark clear plan, as in explained and easily understood, versus Clear Plan. Your interpretation, not mine. have a great day!