US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/28- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[A320 Driver]

I mentioned the 330s in response to an accusation that the West was somehow trying to steal them. I believe the poster said "give up all our 330 and Captain seats".

I agree with your post and what I am trying to point out is that usapa has no intention of protecting the West's min fleet count or the seats the West brought to the merger, and that it is hypocritical to claim ownership of any hulls that came after the merger for the east, but hold anything for the West as domicile (not aircraft) dependant.

Then, I would be inclined to agree with you. You can't use one method for PHX and another for every where else. Hulls, block hours, seats...there are lots of ways to do this, but to be fair, it has to be applied universally. Conditions and Restrictions can work for you OR against you. The C & Rs in the PI/U merger were diluted by simply moving the time around the bases. Our 767 orders were taken out of play by canceling them, and then re-ordering them later. Someone has to be VERY cognizant of the "what ifs" when writing C & Rs.

I get your point.

Driver B)

 

[traderjake]

Yeah, its pretty complex. I won't call you a liar, but I noticed you didn't deny calling him one. :blink:

Anyone who says DOH does not steal jobs from the West is a liar.

Making a Reserve East F/O senior to a West Captain is stealing that Captain's job.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

This statement reminds me that you are simply "UNINFORMED".

The pensions that former PSA pilots were fortunate enough to receive were earned under PSA's own Defined Benefit Plan. PSA Pilots pension monies were rolled into the USAir plan as were the former PI pilots pension money.

Untrue. The PSA leadership was unwilling to stand up to Colodny during the acquisition and transition and the Social Security and other offsets remained as part of the plan. The pension was brought fully in line with the USAir pension plan in the middle of the night in 1992 at the expense of the duty rigs.

 

[informed]

Anyone who says DOH does not steal jobs from the West is a lair.

Making a Reserve East F/O senior to a West Captain is stealing that Captain's job.

No one is tryng to take what you brought to the merger.

 

[767jetz]

What did UAL, CAL, DL, NWA, the cornerstone airlines learn from USAirways, AWA TA sir?

Informed,

I could be wrong, but IMO your question gushes with sarcasm. Which means you probably don't care about the answer. But I'll give it a shot anyway for those who may actually want to know. In a nutshell, UA, CO, DL, & NW learned the right way and wrong way to do a merger.

- UAL has agreed to pay for the legal costs associated with integration for both unions, eliminating the need for any merger assessment to the members.

- UAL and DL both have a transition agreement that stipulates no changes for the company (ie: no synergies from the pilots) until a Joint CBA has been reached. No furloughs. No fleet reductions. No base closings. No flying each others routes. All of which has happened at US. This is very strong motivation for the company to get a contract in place asap and not drag on negotiations. As a result they are more willing to say "yes" at the negotiating table and open up the pocketbook to share the wealth of the merger benefits.

- UAL and DL could not move forward with any seniority integration until a JCBA is ratified. As we all know, an arbitrated list can not take effect until a JCBA is in place. Now the cart is no longer in front of the horse. Once a JCBA is ratified, there is a very short time line for negotiation, mediation, and arbitration. The only work on seniority integration so far at UAL is exchanging current lists and informal talks about protocol. Merger committees can not even meet until the JCBA is ratified. And btw, both merger committees consisting of 3 pilots representing junior, mid, and top seniority from each airline. They have complete authority to negotiate and nothing they negotiate is subject to member or MEC ratification. They are completely autonomous. That means MEC members with an agenda can not influence the seniority negotiation.

- They also learned that fighting endlessly only cost the pilots millions of dollars in legal fees, lost wages, and lost opportunity to extract maximum benefit from the company's synergies. (ie: $$$) Both sides have agreed that while seniority integration will probably go to arbitration, it is just part of the process and whatever comes from that will be the final result. (ie: final and binding) When it's done, the list is the list. Period. As I said, USAir is brought up often as an example of how NOT to do things. DL is brought up as forging the right way, and is the basic starting point for our merger.

I'm sure there are many other small lessons, but those are some major point off the top of my head.

Have a great day!

 

[767jetz]

There was no furlough protection except for minimum aircraft in the USAirways situation, other than that the UAL, CAL situation you scribed is the same as the USAirway, America West pilots.

Didn't US close bases since the merger? That can not happen at UA while working under the TA.

Also, as I already explained, there can be no seniority negotiations until the JCBA is ratified. Obviously you guys did it backward, getting an arbitrated list before a JCBA, creating the ability of one side stonewalling the JCBA process if they are not happy with the award. Again, couldn't happen at DL. Can't happen at UA. Lesson learned.

 

[A320 Driver]

Anyone who says DOH does not steal jobs from the West is a liar.

Making a Reserve East F/O senior to a West Captain is stealing that Captain's job.

Sorry Jake, I can't buy that. Something would have to put the Captains seat in play for it to be lost. That's if you completely disregard NO BUMP, NO FLUSH. The only place that Captain could lose out would be a bid for a new seat on another airplane or another base. Other than that, there is NO WAY for an East F/O to displace a West Captain.

If I am missing something here, as Ron White would say, "splain it to me"!

Driver B)

 

[john john]

merger committees consisting of 3 pilots representing junior, mid, and top seniority from each airline. They have complete authority to negotiate and nothing they negotiate is subject to member or MEC ratification. They are completely autonomous.

So this merger committee negotiates seniority from each airline. Is there a vote? Or what they say is the final result? And if no results what then arbitration
All sounds familiar

 

[luvthe9]

Parker addressed the "whom" question in the last crew news in CLT. I don't think we will see a merger with AA until they go through a BK and eliminate their pension. Parker does not want to be the bad guy on that so he will let someone else bring that bad news.

Also AA said that they have a $600 million cost disadvantage against the rest of the industry. Pension. It is easy to do the math on that. AA will continue to lose money until they make some major changes.

This is a perfect example of how the bar was lowered by a certain airline and its' pilots. Do the AA guys thank you on the van and give you money too?

 

[luvthe9]

And Luvn 737 s assertions that all aircraft types will pay the same in the new contract. So the new industry standard according to the west is an A 330 pays the same as a 737. Are you really sure the other airlines are thanking you for this too? You guys are really forging ahead in the new airline era

 

[luvthe9]

I am waiting for the next PHX crew news video for the guy to stand up and suggest we give up health care so we can remain competitive.

 

[luvn737s]

But there's no way that USAPA can be faulted on a DFR if they can't get enough votes to ratify, a point that the 9th made abundantly clear. Because absent a contact it's not ripe. USAPA does not control the individual votes of the members, and that is what will make or break any contract proposal.

No, USAPA must only negotiate, present and support a T/A with Nicolau in it.

Now, should they decide to gamble and negotiate a DOH contract bought and paid for with major concessions in every other area, then they wold also have a contract that doesn't pass.

And if they break off negotiations and are parked by the NMB, then there is no passed contract.

And if they actually do get released for self-help and 65%+ (all those who do not support USAPA) of the pilots cross a picket line, then there is no contract and 35% of pilots are out of work for a few days.

So tell me where USAPA comes up with an industry leading contract with DOH, because frankly, I just don't see it.

 

[Black Swan]

So this merger committee negotiates seniority from each airline. Is there a vote? Or what they say is the final result? And if no results what then arbitration
All sounds familiar

Don't worry John John, these guys will get it right, remember, it is THE ALPA!

 

[luvthe9]

Well it's finaly all over for the west, we have no more reason to discuss the Addington ordeal, game set and match. (that is unless the supreme court is not to busy. ) Let's all say it together DENIED.!!!!

 

[Black Swan]

I know you guys keep saying it is an internal union matter. Internal to what? There is no west/east anymore more where is the problem? The east has said it will be DOH. Who is usapa arguing with internally?

So you must mean that it is now a matter between the company and the union. Well that takes it from internal to external since you are involving an outside entity.

If everybody gets it, why is everyone but usapa still fighting this? Do you think that the company lawyers somehow are less smart that Seham? That the AOL lawyers can not read rulings? Is there a possibility that Seham is the one not understanding that the Nicolau is not dead?

I appreciate all of the credit that you give the west. But there is not a west tantrum looming on the horizon. Do you really think the company is afraid of us? That the company is or has done anything to appease the west. No the only thing the company is afraid of from the west is another hybrid DFR law suit that names the company.

Ask yourself why would the company be afraid of a little law suit from us? Because they actually read and understood what the 9th said. That if the company agrees to a seniority list that is not the Nicolau they will be liable and it will cost them a bunch of money. If they did not worry about that possibility they would not be in court asking for immunity.

Yes the company is going to deal with the bargaining agent. I think rather harshly very soon. We can already see the same Seham tactics starting in court. The company has a lot more resources to deal with Seham. Usapa is not going to be able to outspend the company on this one.

So what happens if the court comes back and says the Nicolau is the list? What do you guys do then? Still not believe yet another court?

What if the court dismisses this case and the company says they still can not use anything but the Nicolau?

What if the court finds this is a matter between the company and the union and it needs to go to grievance? Would that be the ultimate in irony the company and usapa going to binding arbitration to find out if binding arbitration really means binding. Want to take a guess how an arbitrator would rule about arbitration?

I have said it before. We you look around and you are the only one holding a position and the rest of the world is looking at it another way. It might be time to look at your position. The rest of the world has looked at this and you guys are the only ones that think the Nicolau is dead.

Not everyone "gets it" the way you do. The only thing the 9 made unbelievably clear was that it was not ripe yet.

BTW is that injunction still in place? Has Wake dismissed this case yet? Maybe not everyone "gets it" the way you think.

"BTW is that injunction still in place??""" Standby Clear, you are going to be getting some news. Put on Chrystal Meth, This transmission is coming to you!!!! You got it, you got it, you got it............"