US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/28- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[nic4us]

Go ask your reps how many times that they had EAST pilots (yes, more than one) tell them the RICO was wrong, that they would lose and that if they didn't drop it the union and individual reps were likely to be sued. If they are sued they have no one else to blame but themselves.

I know that on this board many east posters have said that they did not agree with the direction usapa was taking the RICO suit.

Right now the best thing for usapa to do would be to make a public apology. More than anything, I am pretty sure the Cactus 18 are just relieved to have this thing over.

If usapa even hints that they are persuing this thing further, state court, SCOTUS, etc. it could be very very bad.

 

[aquagreen73s]

The Question is: Can the West Pilots sue us? If they're indemnified, big deal. USAPA still has a DFR and once a DOH contract is ratified, DFR 2.0 begins anew. This time I'd expect an injunction issued from the bench. Probably take a matter of weeks...if that.

The Jet America pilots had an injunction within a week of filing. That was after ALPA and ALK management had reached a "solution" as to how to integrate the JA pilots. After the Federal Dist Ct and the 9th Cir. got finished with that case, there was plenty of crow to be had by management and the union.

 

[nic4us]

Wow,

Just read Cleary's incredibly long multi-page rant on the company for filing their request for declaratory judgement.

First I thought, man, Ted Reed must have written this thing it is so full of BS and incoherent thought. Then I realized, Seham wrote this because neither Reed or Cleary are smart enough to correctly use the word "petard" in a sentence, while misinterpreting the facts of the situation.

Regardless of who wrote it, my question for the east posters is, do you people actually believe this BS?

Then I read usapa's very short 4 sentence response to the RICO dismissal.

My question here would be exactly what courses of action would you be investigating? How to further the suit, or how to not get your clocks cleaned by the possible countersuits?

Since I know I would not get a direct response from usapa on this board, I would just have to ask the east posters, do you people actually believe this BS?

 

[767jetz]

Edit.

Ooops! Never mind. Someone beat me to the punch.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Federal Court Procedings 06/25/2008 $49,484
RICO Case 07/21/2008 $92,075
RICO Case 08/14/2008 $41,133
RICO Case 11/25/2008 $13,932
RICO Case 09/30/2008 $10,628
RICO Case 12/08/2008 $10,535
RICO Case 10/17/2008 $18,483

This is the itemized expense of the RICO suit through 12/08 from the LM-2.

Add another $100,000.00 from 2009-2010. USAPA is into the RICO case for about $325,000.00 to lose because there never was a case to start with.

And you east usapa loyalist keep believing Cleary and the gang.

And we on the continue to thank our west counterparts for their substantial contributions to cover these expenses.

 

[PullUp]

The Jet America pilots had an injunction within a week of filing. That was after ALPA and ALK management had reached a "solution" as to how to integrate the JA pilots. After the Federal Dist Ct and the 9th Cir. got finished with that case, there was plenty of crow to be had by management and the union.

Different circumstances. JA was non-union and as such was excluded from negotiations. The 'west' pilot group here is represented.
Read the synopsis here: http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F2/873/213/432339/
The fundamental questions of the two situations are different, and IMO USAPA would be absolved of any DFR claim based on the 'wide range of reasonableness' federal guidelines.
Have a great day.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Different circumstances. JA was non-union and as such was excluded from negotiations. The 'west' pilot group here is represented.
Read the synopsis here: http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F2/873/213/432339/
The fundamental questions of the two situations are different, and IMO USAPA would be absolved of any DFR claim based on the 'wide range of reasonableness' federal guidelines.
Have a great day.

You guys really need to start reading cases before posting about them. ALPA had argued they didn't represent the Jet America pilots and hence, they didn't need to follow their merger policy where it was union-union. The trouble is, ALPA had been collecting dues money from the Jet America pilots and taking actions which would lead the ordinary JA pilot to believe they were represented by ALPA. The District Court agreed and the 9th affirmed.

The issue with USAPA and the West is that USAPA inherited an agreement to arbitrate, and now they want to ignore it. DOH didn't fit a "wide range of reasonableness" under DFR I and it likely won't work in DFR II. If you doubt that, ask the company then why they are seeking cover in the federal court.

Finally, Judge Bybee analogized the West position with that of the Jet America pilots in his dissent:

In Bernard, the factual
situation was basically a mirror image of this case: the
merger of Alaska Air Group and Jet America became effective
on October 1, 1987, and a seniority integration agreement
was completed less than a week later, on October 6, 1987. 873
F.2d at 215. The plaintiffs in Bernard sued immediately thereafter
and were quickly granted preliminary injunctive relief,
which we upheld. Id. at 215, 219. Here, the West Pilots claim
to be aggrieved by the failure to pursue the memorialization
of an arbitration award in a finalized seniority integration
agreement, while in Bernard the claim was the opposite: an
agreement was memorialized almost immediately, without
taking into account a preexisting merger policy. (pg. 8018)


The West is the other side of the same coin. Push anything across the table that isn't Nic and we the West gets their "do-over" (assuming, of course, you convince the company that the liability is worth cutting a deal with USAPA).

You're not getting DOH. Not now, not ever. All you're doing is spinning your wheels while you wallow in LOA 93 in the twilight of your careers.

 

[PullUp]

Wow,

Just read Cleary's incredibly long multi-page rant on the company for filing their request for declaratory judgement.

First I thought, man, Ted Reed must have written this thing it is so full of BS and incoherent thought. Then I realized, Seham wrote this because neither Reed or Cleary are smart enough to correctly use the word "petard" in a sentence, while misinterpreting the facts of the situation.

Regardless of who wrote it, my question for the east posters is, do you people actually believe this BS?

Then I read usapa's very short 4 sentence response to the RICO dismissal.

My question here would be exactly what courses of action would you be investigating? How to further the suit, or how to not get your clocks cleaned by the possible countersuits?

Since I know I would not get a direct response from usapa on this board, I would just have to ask the east posters, do you people actually believe this BS?

According to the latest NAC report, the company negotiators are dragging their feet again, arguing at length about minor details.
President Cleary makes a valid point: the company is in no hurry to conclude a contract, and in fact has no desire to do so, despite what they say.
This suit will delay any new contract another 12-18 months, prolonging the 'bottom of the barrel' wages for the pilots.
Wall street will love it - but it won't put groceries on the table or pay down those credit card bills any time soon.
Also, it delays better sick/vacation/duty rigs, etc.
The question is: was a declaration necessary? USAPA says no - the company is just taking advantage of the situation with a frivolous lawsuit as a delay tactic.

...and the west posters will most probably spin this as USAPA's fault...
Have a great day, considering...

 

[Boeing Driver]

You're not getting DOH. Not now, not ever. All you're doing is spinning your wheels while you wallow in LOA 93 in the twilight of your careers.
[/quote]


And you're not getting the Nic. Not now, not ever. All you're doing is trying to steal jobs that do not belong to you.

The AWA pilots are not satisfied with keeping what they had prior to the merger, they want to steal the jobs from the east pilots.

We will see this place dry up and blow away before we allow you to steal our jobs. Count on it.

Boeing Driver

 

[aquagreen73s]

Wall street will love it - but it won't put groceries on the table or pay down those credit card bills any time soon.
Also, it delays better sick/vacation/duty rigs, etc.

Your kidding, right? USAPA negotiators aren't even generating the proposals! They're letting the company push a proposal across the table first! Why? God only knows but it probably has to do with the inexperience of the NC. I bet they don't even know how to generate a proposal in the first place. Two and a half years into this and all USAPA has managed to TA is six of the easiest sections in any contract. You know, the Missing in Action and Prisoner of War section and the other handful which are no-brainers. Better sick/vacation/duty rigs. Yeah! Not in this regime! I know, "the company is dragging its feet." Ummm....yeehah! What do you think they were going to do?

Now you've got Seham asking the District Court in AZ to stay the company's suit while the Addington plaintiffs go to the SCOTUS. Assuming Seham is successful, it will be at least five months to hear back from the SCOTUS, and then the company could resume its case. That case will take at least a year, probably longer if one of the parties appeals to the 9th. In the meantime, contract negotiations are parked.

I can live under C2004 during all of this. How's LOA 93 working for you?

 

[aquagreen73s]

[/quote]


And you're not getting the Nic. Not now, not ever. All you're doing is trying to steal jobs that do not belong to you.

The AWA pilots are not satisfied with keeping what they had prior to the merger, they want to steal the jobs from the east pilots.

We will see this place dry up and blow away before we allow you to steal our jobs. Count on it.

Boeing Driver
[/quote]

Well, the rest of the airline world doesn't see it that way. They see it the way we do: arbitration + East repudiation of that agreement. Nobody lost more than a couple of percentage points of seniority via Nicolau. The West actually lost more because of the 517 East pilots stapled to the top of the list. If you want to retire on LOA 93, go right ahead.

 

[Phoenix]

...
Finally, Judge Bybee ...
..

Perhaps you could find a really good quote from George Armstrong Custer.

 

[Hate2fly]

agua,

Where have you been? Raising some more donations? Your dream of the nic will never happen. LOA 93 pay restoration and east attrition will be here before you know it. Guess what Jan. 1, 2011 we in the east pick up another $10,300 check. Team Tempe will pay us the $147 million per year and keep us seperate as long as they can. It is so much cheaper than a joint contract. A joint contract will cost the company 400 to 500 million per year. We still have our change of control provision that will make the company have to pay to play when the time comes! We have so much upside in the east to look forward to. Guys like you out west will have to answer to your fellow westies some day........younger and smarter.........how has that worked for you so far? Keep the donations coming!


Hate

 

[cleardirect]

agua,

Where have you been? Raising some more donations? Your dream of the nic will never happen. LOA 93 pay restoration and east attrition will be here before you know it. Guess what Jan. 1, 2010 we in the east pick up another $10,300 check. Team Tempe will pay us the $147 million per year and keep us seperate as long as they can. It is so much cheaper than a joint contract. A joint contract will cost the company 400 to 500 million per year. We still have our change of control provision that will make the company have to pay to play! We have so much upside in the east to look forward to. Guys like you out west will have to answer to your fellow westies some day........younger and smarter.........how has that worked for you so far? Keep the donations coming!


Hate

Keeping basic facts straight makes your case a little more believable. Jan 1, 2011 not 2010.

LOA 93 is a dream that will never pay off.

400-500 million? Right. The company has offered $122 million. Even if usapa had the skill to double that amount it would be $244 million. Another dream.

CoC yet another dream. What did Parker tell you all? Either you get rid of the CoC and there is a merger or there is no merger. You guys will NEVER see $330 for A330 or $230 for A320.

What you guys can look forward to is LA 93 until you retire.

If the west is younger and smarter and the east is the opposite that, what does that make the east pilots?

 

[prechilill]

agua,

We have so much upside in the east to look forward to. Guys like you out west will have to answer to your fellow westies some day........younger and smarter.........how has that worked for you so far? Keep the donations coming!


Hate

I'm happy you have so much upside to look forward to, that will make the Nicolau list more palatable. Plus, Aquagreen is a hero among the west and the donations are flooding in. With our recent victory in the 4th and the company's filing in AZ we pretty muich have you pinned in out east. In a little while USAPA will be finished...
In the meantime, enjoy LOA93 rates, that's about what you are worth.