US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[A320 Driver]

Yeah, I'm sure that if you told a respected arbitrator that you would throw a temper tantrum if you didn't get your way he would just have given you your way. This could all be over with if you guys only had a little foresight. Who knew?

Just laughing out loud....

This could all be over had our national union exercised some leadership on the front end OR the back end. You can't have the president of the union Waltz into your largest domicile and state that he viewed the award "problematic" the first time he saw it, and not raise expectations that something, ANYTHING would be done to fix the obvious problems. Your statement is a huge oversimplification of a big problem.

While I agree that many mistakes have been made, they most certainly are not confined to the East pilot group. I've been reading variants of this same exchange for over a year and there is no end in sight. I don't think either side has the upper hand.

Laughing is probably not a bad thing at this point.

Driver B)

 

[luvn737s]

The opinion of the union leader is irrelevant after the process proceeds to arbitration. His time to lean on either side was during negotiations, when both sides at least had a modicum of respect for the man.

Of course the east and unrealistic expectations just seem to go together.

 

[Phoenix]

The opinion of the union leader is irrelevant after the process proceeds to arbitration. His time to lean on either side was during negotiations, when both sides at least had a modicum of respect for the man.

Of course the east and unrealistic expectations just seem to go together.

It certainly is true that once ALPA outsourced the SLI they hoped to absolve themselves from all responsibility to the outcome and to avoid any repercussions from the dues members. The one thing you can say about USAPA is that they aren't shirking any responsibility for the outcome.

 

[Phoenix]

.. the president of the union Waltz into your largest domicile and state that he viewed the award "problematic" the first time he saw it,...

Maybe a lot of pilots don't like the man, but who can deny he was both perceptive and visionary?

 

[A320 Driver]

Maybe a lot of pilots don't like the man, but who can deny he was both perceptive and visionary?

Now THAT'S FUNNY

 

[RSVP767]

For a union that is supposed to represent ALL US Airways pilots they have done an incredible job of dividing this pilot group.

Aaaah, this pilot group was divided well before USAPA arrived. You can thank good old St. Nic for that!

 

[nycbusdriver]

I'll take a stab at your question Metro...

In my opinion… It is because ALPA, under their mis-representation and mis-guidance... going from one of the best contracts in the industry in late 2001/early 2002 to one of the worst, if not THE worst contracts in the industry... their fluid namby-pamby merger policy (meaning entirely open to interpretation... which we have seen varies wildly depending upon the individual's point of view and who are the merging parties... -- have to protect the big guys you know!)... the FUD and outright lies of ALPA when they were trying to cram down excessively concessionary LOAs (LOA 93 comes to mind)... and National's meddling in our LEC affairs... particularly when recalls were undertaken of some of the reps who engaged in some of the most egregious, self-serving, double-dealing tactics in total disregard of their constituents wishes, are but just a few of the reasons we so despise ALPA... You will never understand the depth of how much... and how instrumental their "policies" and deceit have led us to where we are today... ALPA is not a union... they haven’t been for a very, very long time… they are an organization of power-hungry, money grubbing fat cats, sucking the blood of their constituents for their own personal benefit and gain... power and greed... that is all they care about...

ALPA National proactively screwed themselves out of our dues money. When the NMB gave the go ahead to a representational election on this property, there were very many skeptical fence-sitters on the east side and plenty of mildly loyal ALPA supporters who really would give ALPA the benefit of the doubt over a new union.

If ALPA National had just kept their bloomin' mouths shut and sat on their hands for the duration of the election, this would still be an ALPA carrier. Personally, I am delighted that they made more wrong moves than anyone on the east might even conceive of during the election process. Their actions and hard-sell communications tactics turned the fence-sitters to USAPA, and the shenanigans with the CLT recall and the PHL receivership turned lowal ALPA pilots totally against them.

 

[nycbusdriver]

This whole stalemate revolves around the fact that a new seniority list cannot be implemented without a combined contract. Otherwise the Nicolau list would have been implemented on the day that Parker accepted the list. Do you care to rethink the above statement?

I don't care to change my statement in the least. Once the contract is signed by the union and the company, it is in effect. I am certain that west pilots will file a DFR over Section 22, and they may indeed get a judge to issue an injunction disallowing the combined seniority list to take effect. That doesn't mean that the whole contract gets put on hold. It just means Section 22 gets put on hold.

 

[Phoenix]

ALPA National proactively screwed themselves out of our dues money. When the NMB gave the go ahead to a representational election on this property, there were very many skeptical fence-sitters on the east side and plenty of mildly loyal ALPA supporters who really would give ALPA the benefit of the doubt over a new union.

If ALPA National had just kept their bloomin' mouths shut and sat on their hands for the duration of the election, this would still be an ALPA carrier. Personally, I am delighted that they made more wrong moves than anyone on the east might even conceive of during the election process. Their actions and hard-sell communications tactics turned the fence-sitters to USAPA, and the shenanigans with the CLT recall and the PHL receivership turned lowal ALPA pilots totally against them.

Hear, hear! ALPA was a one trick pony. They pulled out the tried and true method of sowing fear, uncertainty, and doubt coupled with the "we are smart enough to save you from yourselves, we won't allow you to vote" crap. The CLT and PHL outright dismissal of the pilot's right to representation was a perfect revelation of the true ALPA spirit when push came to shove.

 

[Ames]

Maybe a lot of pilots don't like the man, but who can deny he was both perceptive and visionary?

Or.... weak, ineffective, and a windsock for union politics. Tomato, tomahhhto.

 

[Ames]

I don't care to change my statement in the least. Once the contract is signed by the union and the company, it is in effect. I am certain that west pilots will file a DFR over Section 22, and they may indeed get a judge to issue an injunction disallowing the combined seniority list to take effect. That doesn't mean that the whole contract gets put on hold. It just means Section 22 gets put on hold.

If that's the case you won't have a contract, just one big LOA.

 

[nic4us]

You can't have the president of the union Waltz into your largest domicile and state that he viewed the award "problematic" the first time he saw it, and not raise expectations that something, ANYTHING would be done to fix the obvious problems.

Laughing is probably not a bad thing at this point.

Driver B)

Driver,

Prater never came to Phoenix. He sent Paul Rice instead, because the "obvious problems" were about to go after ALPA national for its blatant breach of DFR owed to the West pilots.

 

[PullUp]

Once the contract is signed by the union and the company, it is in effect. I am certain that west pilots will file a DFR over Section 22, and they may indeed get a judge to issue an injunction disallowing the combined seniority list to take effect.

Injunction? Who knows? Flip a coin. 50/50 chance, maybe. If the company makes noises about being harmed in any way with any proposed injunction that would prohibit pilots from bidding and accepting new positions, it won't be issued - guaranteed. Parker and his lawyers have more senators on speed-dial than anyone from the west. A lawsuit could proceed with a remedy after the verdict is in. And of course, the big 'if' is if the west prevails, which is highly unlikely, IMHO.
Have a great day.

 

[nic4us]

That pretty much defines the entrenched positions each side have taken. No solutions, though.
Anybody have any?
Pretty useless to just restate the problem over and over and not offer solutions...
Someday, somewhere, the pilot group will have to put this thing to bed - somehow.
Meantime, Mr. CEO is putting your contract improvements in his pockets while patting you on the back for doing such a good job but saying, unfortunately he can't pay you more without that new contract.
Sad times, they are.

Okay, here is my solution.

We become the first airline to implement and champion a new national seniority list. We rank seniority by the day you are documented by the FAA as having recieved your commercial certificate. Military veterans will have the date of their civilian liscence adjusted for time spent flying in active service.

The list takes effect 2 1/2 years folowing implementation of the Nic in a joint contract, to offset the benefit the east has accrued by 5 years of seperate ops. There is no bump or flush, but after 2.5 years all vacancies, displacements etc. go by the new DOQ (Date Of Qualification) list.

Then we make a master list of all pilots in the entire country, ranked by DOQ. We present it to ALPA,IBT,APA,SWAPA et. al. for use as a baseline in future merger related seniority integrations. We form one big ole pilot union, take over the industry and the world and all retire happy.

Or, we just implement the Nic!

 

[cleardirect]

If you want to go back to the 'origin', this thing should have been worked out - seniority AND contract - before the merger consummation.
But you are absolutely correct: "who knew"? and "who would have thought...?"
Have a great day.

Parker addressed this in a crew news. Someone asked why we didn't do that

His answer was we did not have time. US Air was closing in a matter of weeks. Ever wonder why the T/A is so poor? It had do be done quickly before the doors closed.

Ask him the next time at a crew news.