US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[traderjake]

Well you "ha ha" or your good buddy is in a heap of trouble and now wants representation with his latest altercation with a flight attendent, would love to see him lose his job along with alot of other people!!!!!

Perfect example of the character of USAPA hard line supporters.

 

[ROACLT]

I don't know any other way to say it except you are just flat out wrong. This is the procedure agreed to by all parties in the Transition Agreement:



For brevity sake, I omitted the criteria since the company did not reject the list. ALPA Merger Policy was followed to its conclusion. The Airline Parties accepted the list. Done. Over. Finito.

There is an integrated list, it is the Nicolau list. This whole proposal concept was over when the list was accepted, it was not a proposal it was a fait a'compli. In order for the list to actually be used for bidding, vacation, etc. you have to have a JCBA, but a lack of JCBA does not mean there is no list.

Seham already lost his first DFR. That case was deemed not ripe. He didn't win, it is just the case was not deemed not yet ready for adjudication. Everyone else recognizes that there is an integrated list and it is the Nicolau list. USAPA is as free as any union to attempt to change their seniority list. It is a very tricky prospect due to the zero sum nature of that effort.

If this comically stupid legal concept was really workable, then every seniority integration would just amount to the labor group with the most employees being allowed to dictate the terms of the list. The East pilots are not the first geniuses to think up a novel concept, they are first people duped by a slick talking legal team into wasting their time and effort on this fools errand.

If you haven't noticed, LCC is now being parted out bit by bit. There is no long term future for this airline there is no one willing to merge with this train wreck of an integration. USAPA has failed their pilots and continues to fail their pilots. I don't really see any path forward, the damage is too deep. The one thing USAPA has done is shown everyone what a complete failure their strategy is and no one wants to repeat it. I doubt that is much comfort to the pilots whose careers are being wrecked.

The courts have held the majority can't do that simply to advance one group over another but legally USAPA is just adopting another proposal in an ongoing an uncompleted contract negotiation. However, there is legal precedent for changing seniority list as I stated above. It involved retroactively changing the seniority list so less tenured employees would be laid off first. The court found that using longevity wasn't advancing one group over another because the same criteria was being applied to everyone and it was within the wide latitude for union members with less time to be laid off first. That is the funny thing about longevity, it just isn't a pluck out of they sky, it is the basis for almost every labor union as it became the objective measurable replacement to meritocracy.

When USAPA became the legal signatory, you may as well just insert their name where it says ALPA. Until there is a contract it is a "proposal". Just as any other proposal being negotiated in the course or reaching a joint contract, it can be retracted, renegotiated, and passed numerous times as long as the conditions and restrictions meet the criteria within the Transition Agreement. Even those can be changed through negotiation between USAPA and US Airways and through membership ratification. USAPA has already negotiated a change to the West contract and had it voted on and approved by all MIGS, East and West. Funny that US Airways let East pilots vote on the west contract. Oh, that right, East or West, all members, agency fee payers, or objectors to USAPA, the only collective bargaining agent, lawfully elected through the NMB process. That is the law and obviously US Airways understands that or they wouldn't have allowed USAPA to alter the West contract.

The 9th articulated these points within the majority opinion. There were no review of the merits of the trial, because the lack of jurisdiction negated the fact the trial ever took place. It begs the question why several of the key arguments were commented on by the majority. What Nicalou is(Seniority proposal arrived through internal union process), what USAPA responsibility is("Good Faith"), and citation of the preeminent SCOTUS case where DFR and "Good Faith" obligations were defined. If you were to ask one of your mighty ALPA lawyers in private, they would tell you the majority was commenting and clarifying some legal standards and how the 9th Circuit views them if a similar cases should find itself in front of another circuit judge. Clearly the intended audience wasn't USAPA. USAPA from what I gather always held that it was an ALPA created "proposal", consequently the same argument Jeff Freund(America West Merger Counsel) argued in D.C. federal district court. USAPA has always said it intends to bargain in "Good Faith", a defense it tried to present in district court, but a definition arrived out of a SCOTUS trial, that the District judge wouldn't instruct the jury on. Lo and behold, in their published opinion, which is now 9th circuit precedent, they make sure the definition and precedent is included. You can ignore these things and it won't cost you a penny, but the Addington plaintiffs you obviously go to bat for have paid a pretty penny, or have a pretty bill that is still running. One they are funding on both sides but keep on giving them poor legal advice. You are probably helping USAPA by encouraging them to waste money and senselessly beat their heads against a wall. If the 9th had to review USAPA's other 4 complaints in the appeal, venture to guess based on the District judges handling of ripeness, how they would have been ruled on? If I were a betting man, I wouldn't be taking a bet on the side of plaintiffs. It was clear that the judge in the District Court made rulings from ripeness, evidence, to the argument defense could make to manufacture a result. I would be leery of anyone hanging their hat on anything out that trial.

 

[Phoenix]

Perfect example of the character of USAPA hard line supporters.

Are you accusing a USAPA supporter of attacking a flight attendant??

 

[Pi brat]

I don't know any other way to say it except you are just flat out wrong. This is the procedure agreed to by all parties in the Transition Agreement:



For brevity sake, I omitted the criteria since the company did not reject the list. ALPA Merger Policy was followed to its conclusion. The Airline Parties accepted the list. Done. Over. Finito.

There is an integrated list, it is the Nicolau list. This whole proposal concept was over when the list was accepted, it was not a proposal it was a fait a'compli. In order for the list to actually be used for bidding, vacation, etc. you have to have a JCBA, but a lack of JCBA does not mean there is no list.

Seham already lost his first DFR. That case was deemed not ripe. He didn't win, it is just the case was not deemed not yet ready for adjudication. Everyone else recognizes that there is an integrated list and it is the Nicolau list. USAPA is as free as any union to attempt to change their seniority list. It is a very tricky prospect due to the zero sum nature of that effort.

If this comically stupid legal concept was really workable, then every seniority integration would just amount to the labor group with the most employees being allowed to dictate the terms of the list. The East pilots are not the first geniuses to think up a novel concept, they are first people duped by a slick talking legal team into wasting their time and effort on this fools errand.

If you haven't noticed, LCC is now being parted out bit by bit. There is no long term future for this airline there is no one willing to merge with this train wreck of an integration. USAPA has failed their pilots and continues to fail their pilots. I don't really see any path forward, the damage is too deep. The one thing USAPA has done is shown everyone what a complete failure their strategy is and no one wants to repeat it. I doubt that is much comfort to the pilots whose careers are being wrecked.

OJ,

You are a DL pilot. You merger is in the can. Please tell me why you know so much and care about the US/AWA merger. It's okay that you do, and this is a public board, but I couldn't give a rat's XXX about your merger, why do you care about ours? Curious minds want to know. Spouse? Loved one? Hobby?

 

[Pi brat]

924PS and his "friend" absolutly hate the union, so I have no sympathay for them or him!!

Where do you get this 9? The guy with the initials you use was just granted membership by the CLT leaders. I have flown with him many times and he has never said anything against USAPA, just it's president. I doubt he and I would ever be friends, but I respect him as a captain and the only people I have seen have a problem with him are the ones that don't do their job correctly.

 

[luvthe9]

Where do you get this 9? The guy with the initials you use was just granted membership by the CLT leaders. I have flown with him many times and he has never said anything against USAPA, just it's president. I doubt he and I would ever be friends, but I respect him as a captain and the only people I have seen have a problem with him are the ones that don't do their job correctly.

Not sure if your up to speed on things this guy does nothing but bad mouth USAPA, and now that he might be losing his job he comes crawling to USAPA and wants to join for representation, I have no respect for someone like that maybe you do though.

 

[luvthe9]

OJ,

You are a DL pilot. You merger is in the can. Please tell me why you know so much and care about the US/AWA merger. It's okay that you do, and this is a public board, but I couldn't give a rat's XXX about your merger, why do you care about ours? Curious minds want to know. Spouse? Loved one? Hobby?

One word for the ALPO followers who make your life their life. As Phoenix so aptly put it " STALKER"

 

[luvthe9]

If you have 25years of impeccable service to USAIRWAYS and NIC only gives you credit for only 14, I wouldn't presume anything because he got credit for 33 years he should be a happy individual unless the Aloranfactor kicks in then all bets are off! MM!

Welcome to Westworld. This is the world where 20 years means 5 years. Where the end of the line means the beginning of the line. Where yours is, theirs. Where you work for something, then they get to take it. Their god is Nicolau, the god who sanctions all things for THEIR good.

 

[luvthe9]

So you presume he is the one in the wrong? He has only given 33 years of impeccable service to PSA/USAirways. Perhaps there is more to the story.

And your comment about him losing his job..................COMMENT DELETED BY MODERATOR

Let's put this in the Westworld computer for calculating your and his career. Hold on, here it is.......He only worked here , 6 years!

 

[Black Swan]

Gee I see your a real trade unionist, not!

OK, and you make it your hobby to trash the pilots you USED to work with until you outsourced your own friends.

 

[Black Swan]

Art,

The problem is when they use their majority specifically for the intent of causing harm to the minority, or to get out of legally agreed to contracts. Both of which were found to be the case in the first DFR case. USAPA was founded specifically for the intent of avoiding an arbitrated award that they did not like. Their C&BL's are even structured to prevent any outcome except the one the east wants. That right there is a lack of their DFR. Unfortunately they never saw that the result of the arbitration was a direct consequence of their own actions during the negotiating and mediating phase. To this day they STILL blame everyone but themselves for the outcome.

Now both sides are "all in" and there will be no resolution except through the courts, or if another union is voted in with different a constitution and bylaws that allow the representation of the interest of everyone and both sides agree to move forward together. Until then the west still has their right to legally oppose a majority imposed outcome.

Art, look at where he works, and the number of posts. It is ALL about the fact we bolted from his "association". He can't handle it and STALKS us with every waking moment. Your post is very good by the way Art. If we even dared step into his airline "territory" he reports it to try and stifle it, yet he pretty much lives here, yet really knows nothing about the reality of THIS airline. That, is fact. The part where he states "the first DFR case" is particularly amusing. This "first DFR case" was TRASHED by the 9th. Interesting how this guy continues to dredge it up, as if it has merit. The judge who presided over it, has been REMANDED to get rid of it. And this is what they cite as "evidence" of harm. So if you want to understand what REALLY happened to their "case" in PHX- look up the 9th. And "blaming for the outcome?" The outcome was TOTALLY in USAPA's favor. The way it was cited above was if it was a defeat for USAPA. Typical of the poster and his attempt to spin it. This is looking better by the minute for USAPA. He used to also constantly ask "when is the damages trial starting?" This is the most amusing part. Another attempt to mislead.As if the Wake decision had merit or would stand. The way it was stated over and over was meant to mislead and imply the Wake trial was case law and not totally questioned and under active review. Why don't you ask him when the damages trial is yourself? It will be very interesting to see the story on this one!

 

[Pi brat]

Not sure if your up to speed on things this guy does nothing but bad mouth USAPA, and now that he might be losing his job he comes crawling to USAPA and wants to join for representation, I have no respect for someone like that maybe you do though.

I may not be as I'm now a 737 capt and it's been a while since I've flown with him. I encouraged him to become a USAPA member a long time ago, as I did all east and west. Our last conversation was early this year and he didn't bad mouth USAPA, just it's President, and I share his views on him.

 

[Black Swan]

Art,

The problem is when they use their majority specifically for the intent of causing harm to the minority, or to get out of legally agreed to contracts. Both of which were found to be the case in the first DFR case. USAPA was founded specifically for the intent of avoiding an arbitrated award that they did not like. Their C&BL's are even structured to prevent any outcome except the one the east wants. That right there is a lack of their DFR. Unfortunately they never saw that the result of the arbitration was a direct consequence of their own actions during the negotiating and mediating phase. To this day they STILL blame everyone but themselves for the outcome.

Now both sides are "all in" and there will be no resolution except through the courts, or if another union is voted in with different a constitution and bylaws that allow the representation of the interest of everyone and both sides agree to move forward together. Until then the west still has their right to legally oppose a majority imposed outcome.

I love the "Both of which were found to be the case in the first DFR case..........." Please elaborate MORE on that FIRST CASE !!!! What was the outcome???? Wait, is this the "case" that was not really a "case?" Oh, it still is a case if you are 767 jetzWhen is the damages trial??" Here is his quote, 767 Jetzzz----"-Art, The problem is when they use their majority specifically for the intent of causing harm to the minority........"END QUOTE, so there is NO miscommunication here.Amazing summary Jetzzz!!!! I ask, where did you go to law school, and when( date please) and what location did you realize your understanding of legal issues eclipsed the 9th COURT OF APPEALS SAN FRANCISCO? And which justice gave you permission to completely re-write THEIR opinion?? Art, remember, this is a UAL disgruntled ALPA guy,vs the opinion of the 9th, you know, judges,who had a TOTALLY different opinion on this. So you have a choice who you are going to believe, The 9th Court of Appeals, San Francisco, or disgruntled ALPA UAL first officer who has one thousand what ever posts on the USAIRWAYS board. Which is it..................Here is another PONTIFICATION-I quote 767Jetzzz-."USAPA was founded specifically for the intent of avoiding an arbitrated award....."END QUOTE. another one of his "opinions" stated as if it was fact. HIS OPINION, and opinion only. I have a suggestion Jetzzz. Next time you offer your statements as if they are facts, why don't you state that they are your OPINIONS, and YOURS. Then those who aren't familiar with your operation will be aware. The rest of us have it figured out. As well as the 9th...

 

[Freighterguynow]

Looks like 80 pilot recalls 40 East and West.

220 Flight Attendant too.

 

[luvthe9]

Looks like 80 pilot recalls 40 East and West.

220 Flight Attendant too.

USAPA has for some time been advocating to Management that staffing levels were unsustainable, with particular emphasis on the 190 workload, flight times, reserve compliment and pressure that these pilots are under. With that, the Company has today announced the recalls of 80 pilots; 40 pilots to the West and 40 pilots to the East operation. The Company has indicated that the recall notices would go out Monday and that they would begin scheduling classes Sept. 1, with all 80 to be trained by year end. USAPA has advised the Company that the information for compliance with contractual obligations.

GREAT NEWS FOR BOTH SIDES!!!!!!!!!!