US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[700UW]

Well you "ha ha" or your good buddy is in a heap of trouble and now wants representation with his latest altercation with a flight attendent, would love to see him lose his job along with alot of other people!!!!!

Gee I see your a real trade unionist, not!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

So you presume he is the one in the wrong? He has only given 33 years of impeccable service to PSA/USAirways. Perhaps there is more to the story.

And your comment about him losing his job..................COMMENT DELETED BY MODERATOR

If you have 25years of impeccable service to USAIRWAYS and NIC only gives you credit for only 14, I wouldn't presume anything because he got credit for 33 years he should be a happy individual unless the Aloranfactor kicks in then all bets are off! MM!

 

[luvthe9]

Gee I see your a real trade unionist, not!

924PS and his "friend" absolutly hate the union, so I have no sympathay for them or him!!

 

[N924PS]

I am 924PS and his "friend" absolutly hate the union, so I have no sympathay for them or him!!

Incorrect yet again Luv.

I don't hate the USAPA at all. I have great admiration for many of the committee members, especially the non-political ones. Our Accident/Safety commitee is exceptional, just to name one.
After all, isn't USAPA the collective bargaining agent for ALL USAirways pilots. If you or I should happen to stub his toe along the way, we should be accorded the same representation. Just as the pilot you have chosen to denigrate in public for no apparent reason other than your own aggrandizement.

You hated ALPA, but if you needed representation, you most assuredly would have had an ALPA Rep in tow for the hearing and made use of ALPA legal resources if necessary.

Fraternally N924PS

 

[luvthe9]

Incorrect yet again Luv.

I don't hate the USAPA at all. I have great admiration for many of the committee members, especially the non-political ones. Our Accident/Safety commitee is exceptional, just to name one.
After all, isn't USAPA the collective bargaining agent for ALL USAirways pilots. If you or I should happen to stub his toe along the way, we should be accorded the same representation. Just as the pilot you have chosen to denigrate in public for no apparent reason other than your own aggrandizement.

You hated ALPA, but if you needed representation, you most assuredly would have had an ALPA Rep in tow for the hearing and made use of ALPA legal resources if necessary.

Fraternally N924PS

Never hated ALPA till Pollock gave away my pension at 2:00 AM without a vote, that's what did it for me and most of the rest of us. Since you hate USAPA please don't take the LOA 93 pay return "if" we win it, or if we get anything back on our pension. there is nothing and I mean nothing worse than listeniing to the guys bad mouth all the one's that our trying to get back what ALPA "GAVE" away. and your one of of them along with your "number 1 small bus pilot in CLT". Fraternally Luv the9

 

[N924PS]

Never hated ALPA till Pollock gave away my pension at 2:00 AM without a vote, that's what did it for me and most of the rest of us. Since you hate USAPA please don't take the LOA 93 pay return "if" we win it, or if we get anything back on our pension. there is nothing and I mean nothing worse than listeniing to the guys bad mouth all the one's that our trying to get back what ALPA "GAVE" away. and your one of of them along with your "number 1 small bus pilot in CLT". Fraternally Luv the9

Read my lips. I don't hate USAPA. Never said a disparaging word about the pay grievance or the pension restoration. Voted yes on every assessment in support. Glad our dues money is exclusively for the benefit of USAirways pilots only and not filling ALPA's coffers.

I disagree with USAPA's DOH strategy. Maybe they CAN come up with conditions and restrictions that don't prevent the West pilots from enjoying a decent career before every East pilot upgrades or retires. The Merger Committee has some very smart people on board with all the power points and data that might actually do that. I will tip my hat to them if they can pull that off.

Once again, USAPA represents all USAirways pilots, not just the ones's that agree in lockstep with you.

Fraternally N924PS

 

[luvthe9]

Bad day for Parker and the company today. great job Mike Cleary and USAPA!!!!!International Brotherhood of Teamsters (IBT)

Captain Mike Cleary introduced the leaders of Airline Division of the IBT: Captain David Bourne, Director of the Airline Division; Steve Nagrotsky, Airline Division Deputy Director; and Scott Hegland, International representative for all flight deck crewmembers. The Board was provided a presentation about the benefits of a strategic alliance between USAPA and IBT.

The Teamsters have considerable influence in Washington, DC and represent workers across the global supply chain (warehouses, ports, fuel supplies, etc). Such a strategic alliance will be useful moving forward to help USAPA achieve goals to benefit our pilots to obtain an industry standard contract, and achieving common goals including bankruptcy reform, Railway Labor Act reform, and safety. The alliance is not a merge or affiliation with the Teamsters; rather, it will be a simple strategic alliance that will help us achieve our goals, while completely maintaining our autonomy. There is no financial component to the alliance, meaning there is no cost, benefit or financial liability on the part of either party. The alliance is cancellable by either party.

As an example of the positive results possible as a result of a strategic alliance with the Teamsters, the presentation included the success story of the AmeriJet strike. With only 63 pilots, AmeriJet was supported by the IBT with secondary strikes giving the AmeriJet pilots negotiating leverage to help them achieve better working conditions. The IBT consists of a total membership of 1.5 million, with members in all 50 states (representatives). The IBT represents 10,000 pilots and has more than 60,000 airline members.

Following the presentation, the Board voted to approve formalizing a strategic alliance between the IBT and USAPA. Once formalized, the alliance document will be available on the USAPA web site.

For more information about the Airline Division of the IBT, visit: http://teamsterair.org/about-teamsters-airline-division
USAPA is now more powerful than ALPO!!! NO fuel for you!!! SOMEBODY PLEASE TAKE OUT THE GARBAGE.!! Why CAN"T I GET A CLEARENCE?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Bad day for Parker and the company today. great job Mike Cleary and USAPA!!!!!

?

 

[Phoenix]

Never hated ALPA till Pollock gave away my pension at 2:00 AM without a vote, that's what did it for me and most of the rest of us. Since you hate USAPA please don't take the LOA 93 pay return "if" we win it, or if we get anything back on our pension. there is nothing and I mean nothing worse than listeniing to the guys bad mouth all the one's that our trying to get back what ALPA "GAVE" away. and your one of of them along with your "number 1 small bus pilot in CLT". Fraternally Luv the9

If ALPAphiles have accused us of hypocrisy because we "hated" ALPA but at the same time would have jumped at the use of their legal services had we needed them.... well duh, after they took our pension, ALPA owes us about ten lifetimes of legal representation.

 

[RSVP767]

USAPA filed to become the exclusive bargaining agent for all LCC pilots and they won. Unless and until a new election is held, LCC pilots have no other choice but to have USAPA represent them. That gives the union an affirmative duty to fairly represent the interests of all pilots. [Agreed.]

Unions have been given wide latitude by courts to negotiate their contracts. Captains make more than First Officers, pilots with more years of service get more vacation, and so on. These benefits are unequal amongst the members, but all members have the same route to obtain these higher benefits through seniority, therefore they don't violate the DFR. [That's right..."wide range of reasonableness". Agreed! Now, in negotiating these contracts, how was that seniority generally established by said unions?]

Seniority is a much tougher matter. [Doesn't have to be. See AFA policy.] Seniority does live in the contract but you rarely ever see seniority lists changed by the union. Necessarily, if I move up a number at least one pilot then moves down a number, it is a zero sum game. If a union starts getting into picking out a group of winners and losers in seniority rights they are on very shaky ground. [Man, you can say that again! Now you're getting to the good stuff. Just ask ALPA. They kept changing their policy at the whims of the majority and look what that got them. What did it cost them in lost dues? $1MIL/Month!?] In this case, it is quite clear that the majority wants to take away seniority rights from the minority, rights they obtained through a mutually agreed process (ALPA merger policy). [Actually, the Minority won the right to take away the seniority rights of the Majority through ALPA's internal union process.] Why do they want to do that? Because they have the votes. That is not a legitimate union objective and that is a violation of the duty of fair representation.

If majority rule were the norm in these issues, what would stop a continual shuffling of the seniority list as one group cobbles together a 51% majority and agree to put the other 49% at the bottom of the list? This could continue ad infintem without the checks of a duty of fair representation.

Think back on any ruling body, city council, Congress, whatever. They cannot take away rights from the minority just because they have the votes. That is what the Supreme Court is all about, protecting minority rights. In union matters, the duty of fair representation is the check and balance against the majority pushing around the minority. [Yes, and don't forget....a wide range of reasonableness!]

USAPA could have filed to only represent the East pilots. In that case, they could do whatever was in their power to only represent the East pilots interests. When they filed to represent ALL the pilots, they forfeited the right to disregard the interests of the West pilots. Majority rules, but the majority has a definitive duty to fairly represent ALL the pilots, not just one group or another. [Agreed! And.......?]

"what would stop a continual shuffling of the seniority list as one group cobbles together a 51% majority"

Oooh let's see.......maybe a well defined, principled, non subjective policy! Or, maybe something timeless, something that would stand the test of time......or even respect such. Not some 'touchy feely' feel good policy, subject to the whims of the times, or flavor of the month.

Think about your statement for a minute. ALPA certainly didn't stop the shuffleing of their policy to meet the wishes of the majority now did they?

 

[oscarjazz]

Two issues here. First, a collective bargaining agent was in the process of using its internal policies and processes to arrive at a "proposal" to be incorporated into a single contract bringing the two groups together. It had failed in its attempts to do so and was replaced by another agent who is using its policies and processes to do the same and will conclude at which point there is a single collective bargaining agreement incorporating its "proposal." From a practical legal point of view, for the intermediate period of time, there are two respective lists until that concludes. When it does, it could be challenged, as anyone can sue a union for a perceived injury pursuant to a union's DFR responsibilities. In this case, when and if that claim comes, Nicalou will not be the litmus by which anything is judged, a longevity based integration standing alone would be on trial. It will stand up, as it does with the Association of Flight Attendants and the plurality of unions across the country that use them. The 9th made it pretty clear they see this as an unfinished process and USAPA must meet the "good faith" DFR standard as it pursues this end. That has been beat up, so no need to rehash the definition.

From a legal perspective, you can attempt to reshuffle a seniority list, but the courts have held it can't be done simply to advance one group over another. However the courts have upheld many times that longevity based systems do not do that because seniority is a vested benefit over time. There have been cases, in industrial workers unions where a merger by ratio has been agreed to and later when a plant was shut down, and layoff ensued, the union retroactively changed from ration to DOH, and the courts sustained the unions position that employees with less tenure should be laid off first.

It sad but the courts understand unions better than pilots do. Certainly USAPA and Seham & Co. understand the courts better than Addington and attorneys.

I don't know any other way to say it except you are just flat out wrong. This is the procedure agreed to by all parties in the Transition Agreement:

The seniority lists of America West pilots and US Airways pilots will be integrated in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy and submitted to the Airline Parties for acceptance. The Airline Parties will accept such integrated seniority list, including conditions and restrictions, if such list and the conditions and restrictions comply with the following criteria:

For brevity sake, I omitted the criteria since the company did not reject the list. ALPA Merger Policy was followed to its conclusion. The Airline Parties accepted the list. Done. Over. Finito.

There is an integrated list, it is the Nicolau list. This whole proposal concept was over when the list was accepted, it was not a proposal it was a fait a'compli. In order for the list to actually be used for bidding, vacation, etc. you have to have a JCBA, but a lack of JCBA does not mean there is no list.

Seham already lost his first DFR. That case was deemed not ripe. He didn't win, it is just the case was not deemed not yet ready for adjudication. Everyone else recognizes that there is an integrated list and it is the Nicolau list. USAPA is as free as any union to attempt to change their seniority list. It is a very tricky prospect due to the zero sum nature of that effort.

If this comically stupid legal concept was really workable, then every seniority integration would just amount to the labor group with the most employees being allowed to dictate the terms of the list. The East pilots are not the first geniuses to think up a novel concept, they are first people duped by a slick talking legal team into wasting their time and effort on this fools errand.

If you haven't noticed, LCC is now being parted out bit by bit. There is no long term future for this airline there is no one willing to merge with this train wreck of an integration. USAPA has failed their pilots and continues to fail their pilots. I don't really see any path forward, the damage is too deep. The one thing USAPA has done is shown everyone what a complete failure their strategy is and no one wants to repeat it. I doubt that is much comfort to the pilots whose careers are being wrecked.

 

[GuntherA320]

If you haven't noticed, LCC is now being parted out bit by bit. There is no long term future for this airline there is no one willing to merge with this train wreck of an integration. USAPA has failed their pilots and continues to fail their pilots. I don't really see any path forward, the damage is too deep. The one thing USAPA has done is shown everyone what a complete failure their strategy is and no one wants to repeat it. I doubt that is much comfort to the pilots whose careers are being wrecked.

Lordy Lordy the sky is falling!!! I is soooo scared. Mr. Oscarjazz says we are going out of business!!! What should we do???? Where is ALPA to save us???

 

[Phoenix]

You all did cross the IAM picket line, made a sweetheart deal with the company and many a pilot performed struck work.

You just showed all your cards. Your axe ain't getting any sharper.

Are you making an accusation against ALPA?

 

[Richard]

Folks,

I just deleted ALL posts using the word scab as its use in this context violates the rules of the board.

As a reminder, READ THE RULES before you post.

We also have some new visitors to the cornfield--anyone else?

 

[traderjake]

Well you "ha ha" or your good buddy is in a heap of trouble and now wants representation with his latest altercation with a flight attendent, would love to see him lose his job along with alot of other people!!!!!

Perfect example of the character of USAPA hard line supporters.