US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Art at ISP]

These are merely outsider observations-I have NO dog in this fight and see NO clear right or wrong to this dispute, but I just have an observation or two and a question...

I have been reading this topic for quite a while now and find it amazing that everyone of you seems content to fight and NO ONE is expending any energy on finding a solution which COULD work for both sides. I can only imagine that if everyone put this much energy into finding a compromise which MOST of you can accept, this merger might actually be finished and everyone could move on......

So onto a question....I hear you saying that if an agreement without the NIC is voted in by the majority, then the DFR becomes ripe.....again I am not a lawyer or labor expert, but it occurs to me that if a union is the legitimate bargaining agent for ALL members, and if a MAJORITY of the members vote for an agreement, how is it possible that the group is denied fair representation?

If you extrapolate this line of thought to almost ANY other situation, let's say a UAW strike--management and the union come to a tentative agreement, and it passes by a majority vote of the rank and file, then the side opposed to a contract could sue for DFR???? I am sorry folks, I just don't see it.

I sincerely hope that cooler heads can prevail at some point and that an acceptable agreement which shares the pain AND the gain on both sides of the fence can be found which would allow you all to move on and help US become a competitor again...a true world class airline rather than the large regional pretending to be a world class airline that it has become.....

So while it appears that both sides have SOME merit to their arguments, how long can this go on before it ultimately causes the failure of the airline? Is that what you all want?

I hope it all works out for you---ALL of you....US still has some of the finest employees in the industry, and it really bothers me that due to the behavior of senior management I have not spent ONE travel dollar with US in three years........

I wish you all well and please do not let your emotions get in your way on the flight deck.

My BEST to you all...........

 

[john john]

a true world class airline rather than the large regional pretending to be a world class airline that it has become.....

HP style

 

[nycbusdriver]

And USAPA inherited everything that ALPA signed. LOA 93, the Transition Agreement, and oh yes, the Nicolau Award.

And, as the bargaining agent, USAPA is also free to renegotiate ALL portions of ALL of those things, as was ALPA when it was the bargaining agent.

 

[nycbusdriver]

And usapa never signed the CBA, so the company should be free not to follow it and make you employees at will.

Thats using your logic.

No. Have you ever really even HEARD of the RLA? It specifically holds that the new bargaining agent becomes the administrator for existing contracts. Part of this authority as administrator gives the new bargaining agent authority to renegotiate those contracts in full, or in part.

I can't believe someone who brags about so much union and negotiating experience just never seems to understand that distinction. Your credibility is about three quarters down the slippery slope to irrelevance.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Seham=I talk alot because I charge by the billable hour.

And we on the east are very grateful that the west is paying a large chunk of each billable hour. Thanks for your support.

 

[nycbusdriver]

...So while it appears that both sides have SOME merit to their arguments, how long can this go on before it ultimately causes the failure of the airline? Is that what you all want?...

... and it really bothers me that due to the behavior of senior management I have not spent ONE travel dollar with US in three years........

Hi Art,

Welcome to the thread.

I agree with much of what you said, but I find a huge disconnect in your comments and I have quoted the two that seem a bit baffling.

Nothing that is now happening with the pilots is contributing to the demise of the airline. This "war of words" and seemingly endless litigation pretty are much invisible to 99.99% of the customers of USAirways. This battle among the pilots will not bring the airline down.

You did, on the other hand, hit the nail on the head regarding the possible demise of USAirways. It is management, pure, simple and 100%. As long as management decisions drive away customers, both high yield and leisure, the company will always be in jeopardy for its very existence. You understand that fully by voting with your wallet. It's really the only vote that ultimately counts.

Let me be very blunt. If the pilots kissed and made up tomorrow and marched into the future hand-in-hand, would you start flying USAirways again? (Didn't think so.)

 

[Al Legheny]

These are merely outsider observations-I have NO dog in this fight and see NO clear right or wrong to this dispute, but I just have an observation or two and a question...

I have been reading this topic for quite a while now and find it amazing that everyone of you seems content to fight and NO ONE is expending any energy on finding a solution which COULD work for both sides. I can only imagine that if everyone put this much energy into finding a compromise which MOST of you can accept, this merger might actually be finished and everyone could move on......

So onto a question....I hear you saying that if an agreement without the NIC is voted in by the majority, then the DFR becomes ripe.....again I am not a lawyer or labor expert, but it occurs to me that if a union is the legitimate bargaining agent for ALL members, and if a MAJORITY of the members vote for an agreement, how is it possible that the group is denied fair representation?

If you extrapolate this line of thought to almost ANY other situation, let's say a UAW strike--management and the union come to a tentative agreement, and it passes by a majority vote of the rank and file, then the side opposed to a contract could sue for DFR???? I am sorry folks, I just don't see it.

I sincerely hope that cooler heads can prevail at some point and that an acceptable agreement which shares the pain AND the gain on both sides of the fence can be found which would allow you all to move on and help US become a competitor again...a true world class airline rather than the large regional pretending to be a world class airline that it has become.....

So while it appears that both sides have SOME merit to their arguments, how long can this go on before it ultimately causes the failure of the airline? Is that what you all want?

I hope it all works out for you---ALL of you....US still has some of the finest employees in the industry, and it really bothers me that due to the behavior of senior management I have not spent ONE travel dollar with US in three years........

I wish you all well and please do not let your emotions get in your way on the flight deck.

My BEST to you all...........

The delimna is that with only one bargaining agent there is no one to negotiate with on the other side of the table. A 50% +1 vote or even a 99.999% vote does not satisfy a complete compromise. If even one member doesn't like the outcome he is free to bring suit against the union under the defined limits of the duty of fair representation.

The vast majority of DFR cases are not class actions but single members suing their union over grievances and terminations.

A single member can bring suit and it has as much standing as a large class action. So the concept of a negotiated agreement is still a worthy pursuit and it does have some influence on the membership and on potential litigation in the future but it does not insulate a union from its Duty.

It's a puzzle.

 

[nic4us]

This is the bottom line. USAPA had nothing to do with it. Ran into a West friend today. They know the Supreme deal is the end of the road. All except those on this board. Everybody else gets it.

Yes, the West knows that the appeal to the SC is the end of the ripeness road. The last chance to resolve this the easy way, by simply having both sides live up to their agreements.

Your West friend is going to be disappointed to find out that the majority of West pilots will take it much further, and he/she will be along for the ride.

The bottom line is not that usapa had nothing to do with the creation of the Nic, the bottom line is that the Nic had everything to do with the creation of usapa. An organization founded, elected and designed, to promote east pilots interest at the expense of their West co-workers.

 

[A320 Driver]

These are merely outsider observations-I have NO dog in this fight and see NO clear right or wrong to this dispute, but I just have an observation or two and a question...

I have been reading this topic for quite a while now and find it amazing that everyone of you seems content to fight and NO ONE is expending any energy on finding a solution which COULD work for both sides. I can only imagine that if everyone put this much energy into finding a compromise which MOST of you can accept, this merger might actually be finished and everyone could move on......

So onto a question....I hear you saying that if an agreement without the NIC is voted in by the majority, then the DFR becomes ripe.....again I am not a lawyer or labor expert, but it occurs to me that if a union is the legitimate bargaining agent for ALL members, and if a MAJORITY of the members vote for an agreement, how is it possible that the group is denied fair representation?

If you extrapolate this line of thought to almost ANY other situation, let's say a UAW strike--management and the union come to a tentative agreement, and it passes by a majority vote of the rank and file, then the side opposed to a contract could sue for DFR???? I am sorry folks, I just don't see it.

I sincerely hope that cooler heads can prevail at some point and that an acceptable agreement which shares the pain AND the gain on both sides of the fence can be found which would allow you all to move on and help US become a competitor again...a true world class airline rather than the large regional pretending to be a world class airline that it has become.....

So while it appears that both sides have SOME merit to their arguments, how long can this go on before it ultimately causes the failure of the airline? Is that what you all want?

I hope it all works out for you---ALL of you....US still has some of the finest employees in the industry, and it really bothers me that due to the behavior of senior management I have not spent ONE travel dollar with US in three years........

I wish you all well and please do not let your emotions get in your way on the flight deck.

My BEST to you all...........

Hello Art!

Been a while since I've read one of your posts. Thanks for your comments and it's our loss (in more ways than one) that your travel dollars are spent elsewhere.

Hopefully, we can put all this behind us at some point and look for the solutions you mentioned. The middle ground is there...the right people have to look for it.

Best to you as well...

Driver B)

 

[700UW]

No. Have you ever really even HEARD of the RLA? It specifically holds that the new bargaining agent becomes the administrator for existing contracts. Part of this authority as administrator gives the new bargaining agent authority to renegotiate those contracts in full, or in part.

I can't believe someone who brags about so much union and negotiating experience just never seems to understand that distinction. Your credibility is about three quarters down the slippery slope to irrelevance.

I guess you didnt comprehend that is using MM's logic, I know what the RLA is and means, have taken many classes on it.

"That using your logic"

Did you not see that in the post?

 

[N924PS]

Heard you joined USAPA Welcome aboard!

I have been a dues paying member and been aboard since the beginning. Because of my minority position, I am just along for the ride.

As I have told you many times, I am not JS. But he is a good friend and I have always respected him for his candor. You always know where he stands on an issue.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Your West friend is going to be disappointed to find out that the majority of West pilots will take it much further, and he/she will be along for the ride.

... and yet we're down to 2 of you here on the main US Airways forum. Even your AOL buddies and HP have evaporated.

AOL = 7 guys and some you tube videos - you bought into it.

 

[RSVP767]

I believe seperate ratification was derived from the fact that we had seperate MECs, not from the TA itself. But I could be wrong.

For eveyones benefit I copied the header from the TA, make your own judgement who the agreement is between.

THIS LETTER OF AGREEMENT is made and entered into in accordance with the provisions of the Railway
Labor Act, as amended (the “Act”), by and between AMERICA WEST HOLDINGS CORPORATION
(“AWHC”), AMERICA WEST AIRLINES, INC. (“AMERICA WEST”), US AIRWAYS GROUP, INC. (“US
AIRWAYS GROUP”), US AIRWAYS, INC. (“US AIRWAYS”), and the AIR LINE PILOTS in the service of
AMERICA WEST and US AIRWAYS, respectively, as represented by the AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION
(hereinafter referred to as “the Association”) by and through the Master Executive Councils of the America
West and US Airways pilots (“America West MEC” and “US Airways MEC” respectively) (collectively
referred to as the “Parties”).

Looks to me like the AIR LINE PILOTS in the service of AMERICA WEST have a contract here. Not ALPA, not the West MEC, but through ALPA and now through usapa as our representative.

Here is the best part, not only is it with, the AIR LINE PILOTS in the service of US AIRWAYS, but also with AWHC,AWA,USAG,AND USA.

I didn't realize we still had pilots in the service of America West and US Airways represented by ALPA by and through their respective MEC's on the property? How many pilots do we have here in the service of America West represented by ALPA?? For that matter, how many US Airways pilots do we have here represented by ALPA?? I beleive both of these parties to this agreement are gone!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I guess you didnt comprehend that is using MM's logic, I know what the RLA is and means, have taken many classes on it.

"That using your logic"

Did you not see that in the post?

Well , my logic was quoting NYCBUSDRIVER to the convention center scenerio, yea we saw your post! MM!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I have been a dues paying member and been aboard since the beginning. Because of my minority position, I am just along for the ride.

As I have told you many times, I am not JS. But he is a good friend and I have always respected him for his candor. You always know where he stands on an issue.

Actually it is a toss up between JS or an Aloransk, either way we know he has at least a Buddy in PHL! MM!