US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[luvthe9]

Most of the West pilots are embarrassed by these guys they do not represent the West pilots, The West pilots I have spoken to just want to move on they know the NIC is dead and gone, and are not happy with AOl, kind of like our CM ( who nobody likes). we all need to move forward and getv a good contract.

 

[Mr Furlough]

You can ignore an arbitrated award? Are you sure? You mean to tell me there are thousands of arbitrations in this country weekly, just to make a suggestion that could actually be ignored?

Think again there Phoenix. There is a reason they call it binding.

How did the 9th describe the Nic? I believe they said it was a result of a union process. What was that union process? Negotiation, Mediation, Binding Arbitration.

The Nic is not going away.

Normally I would agree. Tough thing to get past "binding arbitration". Even if it's bad one. It was, and USAPA has. I really do think it's clear that nic never had the legs to make it. When the majority display the fortitude to reject an Arbitration, the decision is effectively useless.

Look, what you want is what we all want for one another-success. Success for each of us will not include the Nic. USAPA's future hinges upon a TA that each of us can look at and objectively live with.

Best of luck with that clinging/animosity thing.

 

[700UW]

They go away very easily if the group that it was arbitrated with was succeeded by another one that had no ties to it , ever. How can you hold USAPA to an integration that it never participated in????You can't. It is that easy.

Your totally wrong, using your logic since ALPA negotiated the CBA, it should be null and void and the company should be free to do as they please.

Better go check with AMFA, when they replaced the IAM at NW and UA they were bound by law to all the awards and CBAs.

The PFAA and AFA were bound by the same at NW for the FAs.

AMFA was bound at WN when they replaced the IBT.

When the IBT replaced AMFA at UA, they were bound also.

If you seriously believe what you posted I have some Ocean front property in AZ for you to purchase.

Better do your research, changing unions does not absolve the new union from arbitration awards, LOA, Grievance Settlements and the CBA.

How many classes did you take in labor law?

How many contracts have you negotiated?

How many grievance hearings or arbitrations did you present?

 

[767jetz]

Binding arbitration follows a person or group no matter who represents them. That's what makes it binding. Your union can negotiate and do whatever they think will produce the result they want, but they can not walk away from consequences of those decisions actions. If you came up with something the west can actually live with, and EVERYONE agrees to walk away from the arbitrated award, then it truly would be dead. (Or at least consensually ignored.) That's why ALPA could not walk away from it either. The west had to agree to something else, otherwise the result of the arbitration is... (here comes that word again)... binding.

As long as it followed the rules that were in place at the time both sides agreed to enter the arbitration (which it did), there is no unilateral changing of it. The Nic award was never on trial, nor will it ever be. Every step away from the nic is a risk for USAPA because it is a step closer to a ripe DFR case. You guys are in a corner unless you produce something that everyone agrees to. Not a likely outcome, still but possible. Which is why the 9th took a "wait and see what happens" approach. But if the west pilots feel harmed by USAPA, they have every right to hold on to the award and seek legal remedy since it is binding on the group.

 

[cleardirect]

Most of the West pilots are embarrassed by these guys they do not represent the West pilots, The West pilots I have spoken to just want to move on they know the NIC is dead and gone, and are not happy with AOl, kind of like our CM ( who nobody likes). we all need to move forward and getv a good contract.

I don't know who you are talking to but I have not found a single west pilot that agrees with you. While the west pilots do want a contract without Nicolau included it is dead on arrival. No embarrassment of AOL, as a matter of fact I hear rumors that the donations are up big this week. Getting ready for the next round.

So with 29 other sections of the contract what is holding up usapa finishing other than lack of talent?

 

[nic4us]

They go away very easily if the group that it was arbitrated with was succeeded by another one that had no ties to it , ever. How can you hold USAPA to an integration that it never participated in????You can't. It is that easy.

ALPA was not a party to the arbitration. ALPA happened to represent both parties that entered into the arbitration. Those parties being the pilots of AWA, and the pilots of AAA. Now USAPA represents (or in the case of the West, fails in their duty to represent) those same two parties. Neither party has been succeeded, neither party has gone away, and neither will the award.

 

[nic4us]

Normally I would agree. Tough thing to get past "binding arbitration". Even if it's bad one. It was, and USAPA has. I really do think it's clear that nic never had the legs to make it. When the majority display the fortitude to reject an Arbitration, the decision is effectively useless.

Look, what you want is what we all want for one another-success. Success for each of us will not include the Nic. USAPA's future hinges upon a TA that each of us can look at and objectively live with.

Best of luck with that clinging/animosity thing.

Thanks,

and best of luck with that false sense of honor you are trying to rationalize with majority status.

 

[767intl]

You can ignore an arbitrated award? Are you sure? You mean to tell me there are thousands of arbitrations in this country weekly, just to make a suggestion that could actually be ignored?

Think again there Phoenix. There is a reason they call it binding.

How did the 9th describe the Nic? I believe they said it was a result of a union process. What was that union process? Negotiation, Mediation, Binding Arbitration.

The Nic is not going away.

Get a grip Nic4us. Binding on ALPA maybe, but on USAPA? It's getting a little old arguing about what the Ninth said. You see red, we see green. Until they review AOL, Part II, if it ever gets to that, we'll never know. Why do you think you can convince anyone back East that your right and we're all wrong? By golly, give it a rest!

Meanwhile, your side keeps spitting out posts about let's get on with negotiations and that USAPA is slowing down the process. The only ones slowing down the process now is AOL. Its latest Ninth Hail Mary attempt is to keep in place the injunction Wake issued requiring USAPA to negotiate with the NIC! What part of "YOU LOST" don't you guys get?

This frivolous filing is just one more delaying tactic by a group that's running out of money and ideas. Desperation, no doubt.

 

[767intl]

repeat of last post

 

[luvn737s]

They go away very easily if the group that it was arbitrated with was succeeded by another one that had no ties to it , ever. How can you hold USAPA to an integration that it never participated in????You can't. It is that easy.

Then USAPA is also not a party to the transition agreement and it cannot be a party to represent pilots in any attempts to regain lost pension money or fight for an ALPA crafted snapback, under your flawed reasoning.

Sorry, I know USAPA would love to pick and choose what elements it inherited from ALPA, but a jury in Federal court has already decided that once. Unfortuantely USAPA's founders should have formed their abomination before the Nic award came out.

In that respect, USAPA's over ripe- in fact rotten to the core.

I feel bad that the 9th has filled so many with such false hope that they have free reign to trample the minority with impunity. They can do what they like, but they will be held accountable for their actions.

Continuing down the DOH path may lead to a contract, but not one that will ever be implemented - thus even further delay.

Replacing USAPA is the quickest, surest way to present a ratifyable contract that passes legal scrutiny.

 

[nic4us]

Get a grip Nic4us. Binding on ALPA maybe, but on USAPA? It's getting a little old arguing about what the Ninth said. You see red, we see green. Until they review AOL, Part II, if it ever gets to that, we'll never know. Why do you think you can convince anyone back East that your right and we're all wrong? By golly, give it a rest!

Meanwhile, your side keeps spitting out posts about let's get on with negotiations and that USAPA is slowing down the process. The only ones slowing down the process now is AOL. Its latest Ninth Hail Mary attempt is to keep in place the injunction Wake issued requiring USAPA to negotiate with the NIC! What part of "YOU LOST" don't you guys get?

This frivolous filing is just one more delaying tactic by a group that's running out of money and ideas. Desperation, no doubt.

USAPA is not slowing down the process, usapa has brought the process to a screatching halt. Until the east accepts the arbitrated award, the process is not going anywhere. AOL is merely defending the West until that happens.

Not being frivolous. We leave that up to the side that has no defense, other than trying to out spend.

By the way, I am not trying to convince anyone back east that you are wrong, I am just informing cyberspace of why you are wrong.

 

[FL430]

Binding arbitration follows a person or group no matter who represents them. That's what makes it binding. Your union can negotiate and do whatever they think will produce the result they want, but they can not walk away from consequences of those decisions actions. If you came up with something the west can actually live with, and EVERYONE agrees to walk away from the arbitrated award, then it truly would be dead. (Or at least consensually ignored.) That's why ALPA could not walk away from it either. The west had to agree to something else, otherwise the result of the arbitration is... (here comes that word again)... binding.

As long as it followed the rules that were in place at the time both sides agreed to enter the arbitration (which it did), there is no unilateral changing of it. The Nic award was never on trial, nor will it ever be. Every step away from the nic is a risk for USAPA because it is a step closer to a ripe DFR case. You guys are in a corner unless you produce something that everyone agrees to. Not a likely outcome, still but possible. Which is why the 9th took a "wait and see what happens" approach. But if the west pilots feel harmed by USAPA, they have every right to hold on to the award and seek legal remedy since it is binding on the group.

OK but consider this, what if USAPA tries to deliver 4 different contracts up for vote but because the nic is attached it always gets voted down. Usapa switches out the Nic for DOH with C&R's and the contract is immediately voted in. AOL tries to file the injunction and the case is put to the jury - the jury says not guilty of DFR because the union tried to represent the membership. The votes make the decision. I posed a similar senario previously but not many wanted to comment on this possible outcome

 

[Metroyet]

OK but consider this, what if USAPA tries to deliver 4 different contracts up for vote but because the nic is attached it always gets voted down. Usapa switches out the Nic for DOH with C&R's and the contract is immediately voted in. AOL tries to file the injunction and the case is put to the jury - the jury says not guilty of DFR because the union tried to represent the membership. The votes make the decision. I posed a similar senario previously but not many wanted to comment on this possible outcome

That's where you're wrong. The "votes" do NOT make the decision. Two wolves and a sheep "voting" what's for dinner isn't a democracy, and it is not compliant with the Law. You guys fail to grasp the fundamental fact that the West pilots, as a stand alone entity, still HAVE RIGHTS under the TA. What the "majority" wants regarding seniority integration is USELESS. THAT PROCESS WAS WILLINGLY GIVEN OVER TO AN ARBITRATOR TO DECIDE!! The PILOTS agreed to binding arbitration not the CBA. It's stated in plain English.

The majority is free to vote for whatever OTHER section of a contract EXCEPT seniority. If the West comprises 38% of the vote, the DOH contract will be voted down by a MINIMUM of 38%.

Bottom Line. East pilots will NEVER be in a position to dictate the terms of Seniority to West pilots. You stole independent West representation in a Cowardly act of aggression. It didn't work. It won't work in the future. When this becomes "unquestionably ripe" it's a slam dunk DFR regardless of what you've been told. Hiding behind East Ratification will not provide any legal cover. Just get on with it. You're all so convinced you have the muscle to do as you please, just do it. All talk, no action. Get on with it, ratify a joint contract already! Of course you're staring down the barrel of an irreversible checkmate with a joint contract but that's the risk you'll have to face at some point. Sooner the better. According to the confident Easties, they have nothing to worry about in that regard...I say "prove it".

 

[john john]

The airbus arbitration was won, the final offer contract that was basically imposed modified the scope language to permit outsourcing

CWA negotiate away duty free hour for mandatory overtime a binding arbitration award
It was given away in concession bargaining during bankruptcy.
And IAM did negotiate airbus scope language a binding arbitration award with management after the judge’s order,Both sides agree to open up the contract and/or negotiate then you vote

 

[cleardirect]

OK but consider this, what if USAPA tries to deliver 4 different contracts up for vote but because the nic is attached it always gets voted down. Usapa switches out the Nic for DOH with C&R's and the contract is immediately voted in. AOL tries to file the injunction and the case is put to the jury - the jury says not guilty of DFR because the union tried to represent the membership. The votes make the decision. I posed a similar senario previously but not many wanted to comment on this possible outcome

Go back to the oral arguments. Judge Graber.

So if usapa presented a contract where all women were to be junior to all men but it passed by a majority. Is it a DFR? Did usapa represent the women fairly?

If usapa staples west pilots by DOH but it passes by a majority. Why do you think that is not a DFR?