US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/29- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Richard]

OK, good a time as any to move to a new thread for the week....

A couple of reminders.... DO NOT make personal remarks attacks or insults aimed at a specific poster or individual. I just removed one or two from the preceding thread.

Secondly, stay on topic of the US East/West dispute. Do not enter lengthy discussions of OTHER mergers and integrations unless to illustrate a point about THIS situation. I will say, however, that you did get back on subject pretty well on your own........

Finally, to those working over the weekend, and to everyone else, be SAFE and have a great holiday weekend.

 

[psw737]

Now that the company has finally acknowledged that they are going to need to recall this year, has anyone heard any detailed info regarding this? Finally some good news, it will be nice to be working again.

 

[BoeingBoy]

By Benz M-100 in previous thread:

"Well, I'm an '87 hire slotted AFTER a Nov 2003 AW guy. NEVER furloughed. 15 years is worth NOTHING???"

Exactly why do you believe that that 15 years was worth nothing? It was worth as much per the Nic list as it was the day before the merger on the east list.

If the Nic list had been implemented on the day of the merger and everyone could bid any job in the combined airline, would you not have been able to hold the same job you had the day before? Would not that 2003 hire west pilot have been able to hold the same job he/she held the day before? Where's the loss you claim? Where's the gain for the west pilot?

Using the same situation with a DOH list - effective the day of the merger and everyone bids whatever their new seniority can hold - a DOH list would have east pilots who could only hold reserve 737/A320 f/o positions the day before getting captain jobs while west pilots who were captains the day before would only be able to hold junior f/o jobs at best. Who gains and who loses then?

Like most east pilots, you want to make up for your largely stagnant career - junior in 1987 and junior in 2005 - by climbing over as many west pilots as possible.

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

By Benz M-100 in previous thread:

"Well, I'm an '87 hire slotted AFTER a Nov 2003 AW guy. NEVER furloughed. 15 years is worth NOTHING???"

Exactly why do you believe that that 15 years was worth nothing? It was worth as much per the Nic list as it was the day before the merger on the east list.

If the Nic list had been implemented on the day of the merger and everyone could bid any job in the combined airline, would you not have been able to hold the same job you had the day before? Would not that 2003 hire west pilot have been able to hold the same job he/she held the day before? Where's the loss you claim? Where's the gain for the west pilot?

Using the same situation with a DOH list - effective the day of the merger and everyone bids whatever their new seniority can hold - a DOH list would have east pilots who could only hold reserve 737/A320 f/o positions the day before getting captain jobs while west pilots who were captains the day before would only be able to hold junior f/o jobs at best. Who gains and who loses then?

Like most east pilots, you want to make up for your largely stagnant career - junior in 1987 and junior in 2005 - by climbing over as many west pilots as possible.

Jim

NOPE, WRONG AGAIN. Before the merger, he could anticipate making captain in a few years due to the attrition on his side. After, if the NIC had been implemented, he may NEVER have been able to upgrade, or at least it would have been delayed many years while pilots with a lot fewer years invested took advantage of the East side attrition.

There's more to DOH/LOS than bidding lines and vacation.

 

[luvthe9]

By Benz M-100 in previous thread:

Like most east pilots, you want to make up for your largely stagnant career - junior in 1987 and junior in 2005 - by climbing over as many west pilots as possible.

Jim

WOW, I can't believe you would make such a stupid statment, no wonder we can't stand ALPA!!!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

JIM, the answer to your question is NO, If(when the WEST is downsized) I will not even be able to hold f/o on the aircraft I am on while a pilot on the WEST hired the EXACT same day will be flying CAPT during the weekdays! MM! WINDFALL WEST!

 

[Metroyet]

NOPE, WRONG AGAIN. Before the merger, he could anticipate making captain in a few years due to the attrition on his side. After, if the NIC had been implemented, he may NEVER have been able to upgrade, or at least it would have been delayed many years while pilots with a lot fewer years invested took advantage of the East side attrition.

There's more to DOH/LOS than bidding lines and vacation.

As per normal, you forgot mention one small fact regarding this guys position on the premerger list. He wasn't looking forward to attrition, he was looking fwd to the unemployment line. You all were. That was the assumption that precipitated this merger, it's the assumption used by Nicalau and it's the assumption that Judge Wake gave weight to during the trial. Doug Parker has made that statement many many times and I'm sure he would again if placed under oath.

This assumption, you can be certain of, will be brought to light once again at the next trial immediately following ratification.

 

[BoeingBoy]

NOPE, WRONG AGAIN. Before the merger, he could anticipate making captain in a few years due to the attrition on his side.

You'll have to refresh my memory - where in the Nic does it say that east pilots don't move up when there's attrition? If you're talking about "making captain", the east attrition from the captain ranks relative to the west is about the same as the east share of attrition movement with Nic - 2/3 east, 1/3 west.

WOW, I can't believe you would make such a stupid statment, no wonder we can't stand ALPA!!!

I know - the tired "DOH = Seniority" thing. Tell that to Benz who's not as senior after 23 years (18 at the time of the merger) as a west pilot with 10 years at the time of the merger.

If(when the WEST is downsized) I will not even be able to hold f/o on the aircraft I am on while a pilot on the WEST hired the EXACT same day will be flying CAPT during the weekdays!

So you want to take his/her seniority for your benefit. Like I said, climbing over the west guys/gals to make up for your pre-merger stagnant career. Let me guess - recalled because of the merger and now want to take a west captain's job. You take a big jump in seniority and the west captain becomes you furlough fodder. There's your DOH windfall...

Jim

 

[Benz M-100]

As I stated earlier, I've read ALL the arguments, explanations and rationalizations that allege to explain how the nic is "fair" and I WILL NOT be convinced of such. 15 years is 15 years. It's utter madness to think that this would go over without all hell breaking loose.

Personally, I think it's a moot point anyway. I have no doubt that whatever USAPA comes up with on the integration will be challenged by the Westie hardliners. I also believe that those challenges will likely fail, especially if the only thing that will satisfy them is the nic. My guess is that USAPA will end up "splitting the baby" in some fashion on the 2 extreme positions (straight DOH vs nic) and this it will make a successful challenge on the basis of "unfairness" extremely difficult - ESPECIALLY if it is already voted into a contract. MY gut tells me the nic is dead. I guess we'll see in the coming months/years.

 

[RSVP767]

By Benz M-100 in previous thread:

"Well, I'm an '87 hire slotted AFTER a Nov 2003 AW guy. NEVER furloughed. 15 years is worth NOTHING???"

Exactly why do you believe that that 15 years was worth nothing? It was worth as much per the Nic list as it was the day before the merger on the east list.

If the Nic list had been implemented on the day of the merger and everyone could bid any job in the combined airline, would you not have been able to hold the same job you had the day before? Would not that 2003 hire west pilot have been able to hold the same job he/she held the day before? Where's the loss you claim? Where's the gain for the west pilot?

Using the same situation with a DOH list - effective the day of the merger and everyone bids whatever their new seniority can hold - a DOH list would have east pilots who could only hold reserve 737/A320 f/o positions the day before getting captain jobs while west pilots who were captains the day before would only be able to hold junior f/o jobs at best. Who gains and who loses then?

Like most east pilots, you want to make up for your largely stagnant career - junior in 1987 and junior in 2005 - by climbing over as many west pilots as possible.

Jim

Jim,

Certainly you are smarter than this. Please expand your view for a moment. This is about a whole lot more than the day of the merger and the day after.

Take the bottom of the active East list....you know.....where the 15 to 17 year discrepencies exist. These pilots (never furloghed) are seeing an additional 1500 pilots go in front of them over what a DOH list would yeild. Many of those 1500 pilots are younger on average than the typical East pilot as a whole. So, how many years does this delay their upgrade (if they even upgrade)? How many more years will they have to endure F/O pay while West pilots with 5, 10, 15 years less LOS enjoy Capt. pay. Not to mention reduced retirement contributions, bidding, vacations, schedules, etc.

The problem is TIME! Going forward in time, the losses accrue for the East. It's not about today, it's about.....how did ALPA love to say it.....career expectations. Many East F/O's (most accually) expected to upgrade with the comming East attrition. True they will still move up the list (or get their attrition....as so many West pilots love to point out)......problem is many will not upgrade as they expected (and deserved), they will not cross that threshold now with the weight of those 1500 pilots on top of them. Summarily, DOH or LOS is detrimental to the West temporarily. The NIC is detrimental to the East permanently!

FWIW, I don't expect any West pilot to make up for my stagnant career! They should not pay for our stagnation on the East. On the other hand, they should not benefit from it either. NIC handed them our attrition without any protection for it. In this regard the West climbs over the East. BTW, I also don't believe any West Captain should lose his seat to an East pilot. Protections should have been/should be built to preserve the number of West pilots holding Captian in any scenario.

As for...... "Exactly why do you believe that that 15 years was worth nothing? It was worth as much per the Nic list as it was the day before the merger on the east list.". Well, you said it yourself......As per NIC it was worth NOTHING!

You know Jim, when I first started reading these boards I valued what you had to say. You appeared to have a good handle on many issues and spoke with what appeared to be some authority. But now......What happened man? I pretty much disregard your posts these days. They generally contain nothing but thinly veiled venom and disregard for your fellow East pilots. Shameful really.

 

[RSVP767]

As per normal, you forgot mention one small fact regarding this guys position on the premerger list. He wasn't looking forward to attrition, he was looking fwd to the unemployment line. You all were. That was the assumption that precipitated this merger, it's the assumption used by Nicalau and it's the assumption that Judge Wake gave weight to during the trial. Doug Parker has made that statement many many times and I'm sure he would again if placed under oath.

This assumption, you can be certain of, will be brought to light once again at the next trial immediately following ratification.

That assumption.......DIDN'T HAPPEN!

And FYI, your assumption that the NIC is the list.......WON'T HAPPEN EITHER!

 

[nic4us]

How many more years will they have to endure F/O pay while West pilots with 5, 10, 15 years less LOS enjoy Capt. pay. Not to mention reduced retirement contributions, bidding, vacations, schedules, etc.

According to the east's investigation into this matter, the delay would have been on average 1.5 years, with a straight stovepipe and assuming every pilot would move at the first opportunity.

 

[Pi brat]

According to the east's investigation into this matter, the delay would have been on average 1.5 years, with a straight stovepipe and assuming every pilot would move at the first opportunity.

I've heard this but never seen it published. Do you know where I can find it as I would like to see their assumptions. I find it hard to believe, although the initial 1.5 year might be right. The reason I question it is because a good friend was hired mid 87. He was hired young and if the company stayed around would retire at about #3 on the list. That's not too shabby, but under Nic he will be 500+, a range that never allows him much use of the widebody fleet, if it stays around the current size. That's a big hit, plus factor in the delay not only in upgrading, but holding a line, etc. PSA PHX and it would be even worse for someone who has given up a tremendous amount to keep this outfit afloat. That doesn't mean that DOH doesn't turn around and do the same to someone on the west.

 

[767jetz]

As I stated earlier, I've read ALL the arguments, explanations and rationalizations that allege to explain how the nic is "fair" and I WILL NOT be convinced of such. 15 years is 15 years. It's utter madness to think that this would go over without all hell breaking loose.

Personally, I think it's a moot point anyway. I have no doubt that whatever USAPA comes up with on the integration will be challenged by the Westie hardliners. I also believe that those challenges will likely fail, especially if the only thing that will satisfy them is the nic. My guess is that USAPA will end up "splitting the baby" in some fashion on the 2 extreme positions (straight DOH vs nic) and this it will make a successful challenge on the basis of "unfairness" extremely difficult - ESPECIALLY if it is already voted into a contract. MY gut tells me the nic is dead. I guess we'll see in the coming months/years.

Benz,

Before the merger was announced, did you have a plan B? I mean, after 15 years still being bottom reserve it must have crossed your mind to try something different, right? Or maybe I'm wrong. Before AWA came into the picture, when US was in BK2, did you really honestly think at that moment that everything would be fine and you'd be captain again in a few years? This is an honest question, No sarcasm intended. Because if I were in those shoes I certainly would have been worried and making alternate plans. Heck I would have done that during BK1. (In fact I did during UA's BK)

The reason I'm asking this is because your 15 years served, to get nothing but junior reserve is a crying shame and you must have had alot of negative feeling toward your company and it's management. (Rightfully so) Just wondering why it is that all of a sudden that frustration is directed at Nic and the West, or so it seems. The west had a career path as well, and it's not their fault that it was so divergent from yours.

 

[nic4us]

The problem is TIME! Going forward in time, the losses accrue for the East. It's not about today, it's about.....how did ALPA love to say it.....career expectations. Many East F/O's (most accually) expected to upgrade with the comming East attrition. True they will still move up the list (or get their attrition....as so many West pilots love to point out)......problem is many will not upgrade as they expected (and deserved), they will not cross that threshold now with the weight of those 1500 pilots on top of them. Summarily, DOH or LOS is detrimental to the West temporarily. The NIC is detrimental to the East permanently!

FWIW, I don't expect any West pilot to make up for my stagnant career! They should not pay for our stagnation on the East. On the other hand, they should not benefit from it either. NIC handed them our attrition without any protection for it. In this regard the West climbs over the East. BTW, I also don't believe any West Captain should lose his seat to an East pilot. Protections should have been/should be built to preserve the number of West pilots holding Captian in any scenario.

You bet that is the problem.

You say that these guys had 1500 West pilots put on top of them. Let me tell you something. The difference between the Nic ( where I lost a slight relative position) and usapa's DOH seniority theft, for me personally. Well over 2000. Yep, over 2000 east pilots that are junior to me on the Nic, most of which have less LOS than myself would be put in front of me for the vast majority of the remainder of my career. I have been in the left seat for over 10 years, and usapa wants to put furloughees in front of me. I would never even get close to the number I had prior to the merger, and I would get back to my Nic number in what, 14 years from now, then retire!

DOH is not a temporary setback in the West careers. It is a full on career stealing low life manuever. Your attempts at rationalizing why it is okay, or offering pityfull concesions based on your terms, is insulting.

Bottom line, I have the law, the means, and the will on my side. So if any usapa proposal that does not contain the Nic, unmodified and to its terms is ratified by the "tyranny of the majority", the fake union will find itself in front of another judge with an unimplemented list in one hand ( the smoking gun) and a ripe DFR in the other.