US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/20- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I concur completely. Wanna hear some goofy logic? I remember when the subject of parity came up last time, the West argument was that it wasn't fair because they weren't getting a raise by the same percentage as the East. I've read the same absolutely ridiculous argument about a combined contract just recently on this board.

Just no figuring out the logic.

PARITY , would be a great idea, do you honestly think DP would open his pocketbook and dole it to the WEST? EAST contract provision just like that,"SNAPBACK" thing in the change of control provision! MM!

 

[luvthe9]

I could care less about ALPA, but if you mean electing USAPA was the SMARTEST thing east pilots ever did, that explains a lot as to why they are the lowest paid amongst their peers will likely retire in the same circumstances they are in now. What you call “smart”, I call laughable or pathetic.

Well Calloway, when the LOA 84 grievance comes in in late fall or early winter, and the East pilots prevail, you are going to be thinking a lot differently.

 

[luvthe9]

It is becoming apparent to us that some of you just can't read..

What part of the warning to drop the Who bought Whom argument didn't you understand?

I just issued some suspensions and deleted at least a dozen posts.

DROP IT ALREADY.. It has NO bearing on the current labor dispute.

Next post perpetuating this dead argument gets TWO WEEKS OFF.

Well said Richard. This is just like the arguments going forward. I can only imagine the judge when the west again sues, for the what, 5th time. The judge admonishes counsel for the west- " please stop bringing up all these situations from 2001-2005 when the west supposedly saved the east. When the west gets offered base protection, pay raises, seat protection, and continues to argue "harm" Give us all a rest. We could dig far into your past also. It is what we are dealing with TODAY. This is today, and it is a different situation. Bring us your best argument for today. The day where we are all working, and there is no harm.

 

[traderjake]

So, what's not fair about furloughing guys that have only been on the property 4 or 5 years before guys that have been on the property 20-25 years?

You want to 1000 West pilots before you furlough the bottom East pilot.

Day before merger bottom East pilot is one number from being furloughed.

Day after merger he is 1000 numbers from being furloughed.

Even you can't possibly think that is fair.

 

[nic4us]

You want to 1000 West pilots before you furlough the bottom East pilot.

Day before merger bottom East pilot is one number from being furloughed.

Day after merger he is 1000 numbers from being furloughed.

Even you can't possibly think that is fair.

Actually, the day before the merger he was one number from being furloughed, and of course the guy one number junior to him was furloughed along with 1700 others.

The day after the merger with a DOH plan he would be around 1600 away from furlough. You would have to furlough every West f/o and approximately 600 of the 900 West captains before this guy would be back to two numbers away from furlough again, and his furloughed classmate would be one number away from furlough.

And yes the usapian seniority theives think that is perfectly fair.

 

[nic4us]

Actually, a resolution for parity in this case (whole enchilada) would be a benefit for all pilots on the property in the long run; with extended separate operations it would reduce the likely-hood of any whipsaw and could lead to the beginning of some unity for the day when NMB does release the bargaining parties. (Don't have any suggestions if the outcome is only a 3 % yearly raise)

88,

A resolution for parity? Who are you proposing makes this resolution, and why would the company offer it at this late of stage while they are in contract negotiations?

A common misconception on this thread is that the west somehow is or was an impediment to east parity. It has always been the company that said parity would come from a joint contract. The West did not agree with the company's position on this matter until the east walked out of negotiations and headed down their dead end DOH highway. Then the West wholeheartedly supported the company's position, but still had no say in the company's actions regarding parity.

Two other facts. One is, the first thing the West did when usapa was elected was ask the president of the seniority stealling club to let the West start section 6 negotiations as our contract was far past amendable. Answer from the DFR mastermind. No, usapa will get us all a new contract soon enough. Second fact is that the whipsaw started the day you walked out of negotiations and for the time being favors the east. Not because you have lower pay, but more because you have greater flexibility for the company in scheduling issues related to your contract and your EST timezone crew bases.

So I do not see parity as a unity building block. Actually, if the company now decided to give the east parity, I think it would cause an even greater divide, both between east and west and even more so between the West and the company.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

You want to 1000 West pilots before you furlough the bottom East pilot.

Day before merger bottom East pilot is one number from being furloughed.

Day after merger he is 1000 numbers from being furloughed.

Even you can't possibly think that is fair.

You'd be wrong there. How about we ALL work to make this thing float? Maybe zero furloughs?

Why should East guys be furloughed AT ALL, if the cuts are on the former West side?

Nope, I know what's fair. Furloughing guys that were on probation when the merger was announced is WAAAY more fair that furloughing guys that have been in the property 17+ years. Your argument is no good. Even ALL the other labor groups at LCC agree with me.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

88,

A resolution for parity? Who are you proposing makes this resolution, and why would the company offer it at this late of stage while they are in contract negotiations?

A common misconception on this thread is that the west somehow is or was an impediment to east parity. It has always been the company that said parity would come from a joint contract. The West did not agree with the company's position on this matter until the east walked out of negotiations and headed down their dead end DOH highway. Then the West wholeheartedly supported the company's position, but still had no say in the company's actions regarding parity.

Two other facts. One is, the first thing the West did when usapa was elected was ask the president of the seniority stealling club to let the West start section 6 negotiations as our contract was far past amendable. Answer from the DFR mastermind. No, usapa will get us all a new contract soon enough. Second fact is that the whipsaw started the day you walked out of negotiations and for the time being favors the east. Not because you have lower pay, but more because you have greater flexibility for the company in scheduling issues related to your contract and your EST timezone crew bases.

So I do not see parity as a unity building block. Actually, if the company now decided to give the east parity, I think it would cause an even greater divide, both between east and west and even more so between the West and the company.

USAPA only recognizes ONE pilot group, not an East or West as far as section 6 or anything else goes. The company said they would NOT negotiate separate contracts, not USAPA.

It WAS the WEST MEC that opposed parity. Your so called "facts" are wrong, again.

 

[Hate2fly]

You want to 1000 West pilots before you furlough the bottom East pilot.

Day before merger bottom East pilot is one number from being furloughed.

Day after merger he is 1000 numbers from being furloughed.

Even you can't possibly think that is fair.

trader,

Have you ever looked at the east and west seniority lists? In the east we have 85 furloughed and the west has 138 furloughed. The company is going to start to recall before the end of this year and new hires will be right behind them. Your east attrition is creating this movement. We will lose 2800 plus pilots in the east over the next 14 years based only on age 65. Take a good look at our medicals in the east. These numbers will increase on a daily basis. Even Lyle Hogg is starting to "get" it! These west pilots that you are so worried about will be smoking up the east list so fast they will forget all about the west operation. By the way the most junior east pilot on 8/30/2004 is Varini #3408......remember MDA was in fact MAINLINE.......Jerry Glass already testified that MDA was in fact MAINLINE! Your boys at ALPA really made some big mistakes! The most junior west pilot on 8/30/2004 is Rennspies #1630. Keep up the good work!

Hate

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Keep up the good work in pointing out the failures of the EAST MEC, as far as parity, negotiations , etc, then ask yourself,"WHERE IS ALPA?" MM! And your answer is what?

 

[nic4us]

USAPA only recognizes ONE pilot group, not an East or West as far as section 6 or anything else goes. The company said they would NOT negotiate separate contracts, not USAPA.

It WAS the WEST MEC that opposed parity. Your so called "facts" are wrong, again.

I said the West wholeheartedly opposed parity, so how are my facts wrong?

I admitted that the West supported the company's position to use the leverage resulting from the disparities of the contracts in order to gain a new joint contract, the West did so after the whinners walked out of joint negotiations as part of their "its just not fair" breakdown.

"usapa only recognizes ONE pilot group," that is true enough, but as it applies to seniority integration at LCC they only REPRESENT one pilot group, that group being the former east pilots and their position from the day the merger was announced. That is why it is so easy to get what would otherwise be an incredibly difficult DFR conviction against the seniority theives. Well that and the fact that there is a contract saying seniority integration will be by ALPA merger policy, and that seniority integration specified in the TA had already been completed by the time +/- 2500 east pilots voted away their ability to be taken seriously.

Do I have any "facts" wrong in this post?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I said the West wholeheartedly opposed parity, so how are my facts wrong?

I admitted that the West supported the company's position to use the leverage resulting from the disparities of the contracts in order to gain a new joint contract, the West did so after the whinners walked out of joint negotiations as part of their "its just not fair" breakdown.

"usapa only recognizes ONE pilot group," that is true enough, but as it applies to seniority integration at LCC they only REPRESENT one pilot group, that group being the former east pilots and their position from the day the merger was announced. That is why it is so easy to get what would otherwise be an incredibly difficult DFR conviction against the seniority theives. Well that and the fact that there is a contract saying seniority integration will be by ALPA merger policy, and that seniority integration specified in the TA had already been completed by the time +/- 2500 east pilots voted away their ability to be taken seriously.

Do I have any "facts" wrong in this post?

Yes.
1) The West NEVER supported parity for the east after your latest raise. They apparently thought that by holding that hammer over the East side that they could get a contract ratified including the NIC sooner. Didn't work, did it?
2) USAPA represents ALL pilots of LCC, both sides. The reality is that to get a ratifiable contract they know that the NIC is dead-in-the-water. Therefore, I wouldn't expect any sort of proposal to go forward with the NIC included.

There you go.

 

[nic4us]

You'd be wrong there. How about we ALL work to make this thing float? Maybe zero furloughs?

I am on board to make this thing float. I want to get the furloughs back. I want to see growth. I want to see the company be successful, only not on your or usapa's terms. usapa has been an impediment to all our collective best interest and now you say effectively, hey once usapa gets its way and screws you over, how about we all work together. No thanks.

So I am on board and doing my part, right up to the time that the fake union is allowed to steal my position and status so they can give it to a furloughed pilot who has less LOS than me. If that day comes, an entirley new course will be set for this ship, and I promise you will not like the destination.

 

[nic4us]

Yes.
1) The West NEVER supported parity for the east after your latest raise. They apparently thought that by holding that hammer over the East side that they could get a contract ratified including the NIC sooner. Didn't work, did it?
2) USAPA represents ALL pilots of LCC, both sides. The reality is that to get a ratifiable contract they know that the NIC is dead-in-the-water. Therefore, I wouldn't expect any sort of proposal to go forward with the NIC included.

There you go.

Um, our latest raise occured in 2004, long before the merger.

Yep, the West "wholeheartedly" supported the company's position that parity would come with a joint contract. Would you like me to say it a fourth time?

The reality is, to get a ratifiable contract implemented, usapa is going to have to enforce the contractually agreed upon methodology and results of the arbitration, otherwise that ratifiable contract will not be implementable, as it will always be blocked by litigation. It will be time consuming, but I will be proven right just as soon as usapa pulls the trigger on their seniority theft contract breach.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Um, our latest raise occured in 2004, long before the merger.

Yep, the West "wholeheartedly" supported the company's position that parity would come with a joint contract. Would you like me to say it a fourth time?

The reality is, to get a ratifiable contract implemented, usapa is going to have to enforce the contractually agreed upon methodology and results of the arbitration, otherwise that ratifiable contract will not be implementable, as it will always be blocked by litigation. It will be time consuming, but I will be proven right just as soon as usapa pulls the trigger on their seniority theft contract breach.

Just like I said and you didn't on the first point.

Ain't gonna happen. You need to get over it and move on on your second.

And, You're wrong about your last raise, also. It was in Jan 2007. Should I give you the page of YOUR OWN contract to prove it?

Swing and a miss!