US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/20- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[767jetz]

PI- hope you are figuring out what the 9th ruling meant. There is a real campaign by the west posters and UAL posters to try and confuse the issue.

...Keep the faith. I guarantee this thing is coming to a close faster than they realize.

It's interesting that when an east pilot even HINTS at a moderate position by saying things like:

I agree that USAPA has a duty to represent you fairly

or:

I agree that the current position of DOH with C&R may fail that test

You imply that he is misinformed as to the true meaning of things and must be confused by the west/UAL/DL propaganda conspiracy.

Perhaps he does have a good understanding, even better than you, and also has the courage to speak his opinion even though it is not popular among the east posters here or even the MEC.

When anyone else has an opposing opinion you start with attacks and name calling. But when an "outsider" agrees with your point of view he is certainly welcome.

No one is trying to confuse the issue. On the contrary we are trying to keep it from being confused. And like it or not, all pilots have an interest in things that affect our profession, even when it is at another airline. Contracts, pay rates, seniority integrations, pensions, bankruptcies, strikes and many other factors affect the industry as a whole, either now or in the future. So instead of being an attack dog maybe you should start to accept that other people have valid opinions, even if they don't conform to your view of the world.

 

[767intl]

Almost true, and this is where the "thorny question" comes into play. usapa (as the "association") can modify the TA, but the "association" is a term used for the two seperate parties "pilots in the service of AWA" and "pilots in the service of AAA". You can find this in the header of the TA which states exactly who is entering into the agreement.

As usapa has no distinction or seperate representation for "the pilots in the service of AWA", and as we all know the desire of those pilots would be contradictory to what usapa would like to impose. So usapa actually cannot change the TA without commiting a breach of their DFR toward the West pilots.

We all know what happened here. The TA is a contract between Me, You, and the Company. You won the right to represent Me. Well, get on with it, I want the TA upheld in full force and to its terms, I am holding "the pilots in the service of AAA" and the "Airline parties" to their end of the agreement. Change my rights afforded by the TA, suffer pain of unquestionably ripe DFR.

So for you, changing the TA (I have to assume in any way) equals DFR? Nic4, where do you dream this stuff up? I guess you could argue the TA is dead since there aren't 2 pilot parties anymore.

Why aren't you getting it? The Ninth got it. They recognized the impasse. They gave both sides a "wide range of reasonableness" pathway to resolution, which may not include the NIC.

The present impasse, in fact, could well be prolonged by prematurely resolving the
West Pilots' claim judicially at this point. Forced to bargain for the Nicolau Award, any
contract USAPA could negotiate would undoubtedly be rejected by its membership. By
deferring judicial intervention, we leave USAPA to bargain in good faith pursuant to its
DFR, with the interest of all members - both East and West - in mind, under pain of an
unquestionably ripe DFR suit, once a contract is ratified.

The Ninth also made it clear that,

The final product of the bargaining process may constitute evidence of a breach of duty
only if it can be fairly characterized as so far outside a 'wide range of reasonableness,'
that it is wholly 'irrational' or 'arbitrary.'

But if you think that not having the NIC is "so far outside a 'wide range of reasonableness,' that it is wholly 'irrational' or 'arbitrary,'" DFR away, until you run out of money, again. Just keep in mind what the Ninth said about the NIC,

"Additionally, USAPA's final proposal may yet be one that does not work the
disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if that proposal is not the Nicolau Award."

For you, a No-NIC contract = irrational or arbitrary = DFR. The Ninth pre-empted that argument and disagreed.

Since your so bent over the axle that any change in the TA is DFR, Ok. This is what I propose. USAPA presents a DOH contract proposal. USAPA can't present anything else without being in violation of their own constitution. To make you happy, USAPA preserves the 2-groups, two votes, with one side being able to veto the other. So, East approves a DOH contract proposal. West disapproves. Now we got USAPA unable to get a new contract passed. USAPA did its best, but came up short. They have a legal obligation to get a contract passed through majority vote. They have no choice except to change the TA veto wording. Now go back and read what the Ninth wrote. I'm tired of spelling it out for you over and over again, but,
"Additionally, USAPA's final proposal may not be one that does not work the
disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if that proposal is not the Nicolau Award"

One more thing, you guys scoffed at Hate2fly (my good buddy and gear-yanker, extraordinaire)over his calling the Wake suit "premature adjudication." He was accused of running some kind of double entendre. Either the Ninth has an equally perverse sense of humor, or they recognize "premature adjudication" for what it is, premature,

"The ripeness inquiry is "intended to 'prevent the courts, through avoidance of
premature adjudication, from entangling themselves in abstract disagreements."

(Or maybe they get their wording off Chat Boards)

 

[BoeingBoy]

I'm just wondering if the west is now so entrenched in their position due to events that have taken place, that even a slight modification, seen as a type of plea bargain to end the stalemate, is even possible.

That's the $64 million question, or two of them I guess. Would USAPA (or a majority of MIGS force USAPA to) change the C&B/L and/or come up with a seniority proposal that, to paraphrase the 9th, would not disadvantage the west pilots as much as they fear even if it's not strictly the Nic?

And FWIW USAPA doesn't have a MEC. Same thing basically but they call it the BPR (board of pilot representatives). The formula for determining how many members of the BPR a base has is determined by the number of MIGS in that base (even though the BPR is required to represent ALL members of the craft/class in a base), so PHX has one BPR member out of something like 12-13 BPR members total. So getting the BPR to agree to put a change in the C&B/L out for a vote would be an uphill battle - any east base except possibly DCA has enough clout to outvote the PHX rep.

Jim

 

[Coach Cabin]

Do you spend your idle time making this stuff up. Show us all there the 9th said they "abandoned" the Nic.

What they did say was "USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if that proposal is not the Nicolau Award." I don't see "abandoned" anywhere in there. What I do see is "disadvantages Plaintiffs fear" - that would be DOH. Putting limited C&R's in to lock the west pilots into PHX then taunting them about how PHX faces closure certainly doesn't do anything to "not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear."

Jim

This is the scenario:

In a moment of clarity and reasonableness USAPA submits a seniority proposal to the company that is not the Nic but also "does not work to the disadvantages that the plaintiffs fear" because it is a fair proposal slotting all pilots with relative seniority, instead of giving super seniority to the top 517. No Nic but also no DFR for the west. Do the top 517 now have an "unquestionably ripe DFR" against USAPA?

 

[luvthe9]

What if (and I know this is a big "what if"), but what if USAPA changes it's C&BL, and then includes Nic in section 22, but adds some adjustments for LOS, and true attrition, (the one that comes from their retiring captains and maybe 330 f/o's) and then some small short fences to ease the transition?

I realize changing the C&BL would probably require recalling the MEC or maybe even a new representative election. But I'll bet there are moderate voices on the east that would like to change the stalemate and save everyone time and money and get on with life. I know the west doesn't have to change a thing, and probably IMO has a good legal argument to win in the end after more wasted years and money. I'm just wondering if the west is now so entrenched in their position due to events that have taken place, that even a slight modification, seen as a type of plea bargain to end the stalemate, is even possible.

There is NO way the Nic is going forward with the USAPA proposal. Especially after the 9th. DOA. LOS maybe in some shape or form, but forget the NIC. I don't care what you say. It is eminently clear the 9th does not regard the Nic as a necessary ingredient. It was a flawed award, it can now be thrown out, and it will. This is the opening to trash this windfall, and windfall it is. Out it goes. This is now an internal union issue. Of course the west will not be harmed in the standard of fairness other than the one they hold so dearly to. That, is not going to happen. They will be protected, equally as were other employee groups. The harm will not be realized in the context of what constitutes fairness to those who know the realities of airline integrations. If the west wants to fight it? Then go ahead. The end of this is coming on rather quickly. Parker obviously wants a contract now, as he is going to go and try to do the deal with American.

 

[luvthe9]

Premature Adjudication. A classic statement, and how true. The Desert Judge Wake, and Desert Judge 2 Bybee. Both union haters. Don't put your stock in them. Their judicial objectivity is clouded by their hatred for labor. Proven to step on the rights of citizens in their quest to squash labor.

 

[767intl]

This is the scenanrio: In a moment of clarity and reasonableness USAPA submits a seniority proposal to the company that is not the Nic but does also does not "work to the disadvantages that the plaintiffs fear" because it is a fair proposal slotting all pilots with relative seniority, instead of giving super seniority to the top 517. No Nic but also no DFR for the west. Do the top 517 now have an "unquestionably ripe DFR" against USAPA?

I'm not following you, Coach. Your scenario doesn't logic out. Your slotting looks like the NIC on steroids. USAPA is committed to DOH principles. Slotting isn't an option in a DOH list. The top 517 are at the top by virtue of their DOH seniority, not some "super" seniority scenario. What USAPA official, union officer, NAC member, professional negotiator, would ever consider slotting? And why?

Premature Adjudication. A classic statement, and how true. The Desert Judge Wake, and Desert Judge 2 Bybee. Both union haters. Don't put your stock in them. Their judicial objectivity is clouded by their hatred for labor. Proven to step on the rights of citizens in their quest to squash labor.

Hate2fly comes up with some good ones. He's a stitch in the cockpit (when not performing required duties). I don't know how we could be more indebted to Wake. If it wasn't for him, we'd still be in limbo, not knowing what was fair, reasonable, No-Nic being DFR, what was mature, pre-mature, immature. The West would be building its war chest. Luv, we owe a lot to the desert judge. He came through for us, big time.

 

[BoeingBoy]

This is the scenario:

I certainly understand, and so did the 9th, that that is a possibility. That possibility is one of the reasons the 9th used as a basis for their "not ripe" ruling. However, "the 9th abandoned Nic" was used in the post I was responding to and the context was the same as the post following yours:

but forget the NIC. I don't care what you say. It is eminently clear the 9th does not regard the Nic as a necessary ingredient. It was a flawed award, it can now be thrown out, and it will. This is the opening to trash this windfall, and windfall it is. Out it goes. This is now an internal union issue. Of course the west will not be harmed in the standard of fairness other than the one they hold so dearly to. That, is not going to happen. They will be protected, equally as were other employee groups.

"it can now be thrown out and it will" - i.e. DOH will be the proposal
"This is the opening to trash this windfall" - i.e. DOH will be the proposal
"They will be protected, equally as were other employee groups" - i.e. DOH will be the proposal

As for the top "517" (or however many are left), I doubt that the west would have too much heartburn about limited protections (fences) for the widebodies. Actually, I'd like to see some of that protection given to the widebody F/O's who Nic slotted in with the rest of the narrowbody F/O's (even though the east brought widebody F/O jobs to the merger). Of course, that would mean fewer widebody slots fenced for the top east pilots since the 517 number came from the number of widebody captain AND F/O jobs the east brought to the merger.

I also doubt the west would have too much heartburn if the future upgrades were prorated based on the number of openings created by captain attrition.

I seriously doubt that the west would not file the DFR suit again if the USAPA proposal started with DOH - it's take a NYC phone book sized list of C&R's for that to "not work the disadvantage the west fears" and I just don't see USAPA making a DOH based proposal with the C&R's necessary.

Jim

 

[luvthe9]

I don't know if I do or not, because I tend be a literal person and I'm finding out that the law is not as literal as I thought. It seems to be more of what "is" is.

I agree with a lot of what you have said, but I do think USAPA has shown a willingness to ignore the rights and needs of the west. The C18 case is the most glaring case, but there are others. I believe in PHX AOL was able to take the failure to abide by the letter of the TA and the other evidence of poor treatment of the west to come to the conclusion that USAPA failed their DFR. The union and company absolutely have the right to negotiate and change our contract, but the union has to take all pilots in consideration. I think that if the leaders of USAPA don't change their way of handling the west, we will be right back where we were in PHX.

PI - just remember what they have in store for you. You were never furloughed and it looks like they think putting a 97 hire on you is a fantastic idea. Remember, that guy was out on the street 13 solid years while you put in your time.And you checked out in less than 5 years. That is some sort of commie collectivist idea in my mind, and it goes right in the trash. Remember, if they DFR, they have to come out without Wake tying a jury up, and then prove that isn't harm to you! If that isn't harm to you, I don't know what harm is then. I cannot wait to turn it right back up their own tailpipes. The next part where they get blown out of the water. They are going to try and pick one time of their choosing to jam it to you to get their land grab. You are going to hear how you are lucky to survive, and on and on. Forget it. This is NOT the Nic arb. We have moved far along, to a new bargaining agent, and a new point in time. Let them try. I guarantee you we are heading for a deal with the company. If they don't get the commensurate percentage raise, then that is too bad. They held us after we gave them profit share and a DC Plan. That will come out also. Hang tight, the end is coming on. Step one- the en banc gets demolished.

 

[BoeingBoy]

luv,

For someone who seems so convinced you're right you sure do spend a lot of time trying to convince people you're right. Why not just sit back and be vindicated in the end? Doubts, maybe? Somewhere in the back of your mind the thought that judges almost never reverse jury decisions and convincing a jury that a DOH proposal is unfair to the west is as simple as showing them three seniority lists - the east, the west, and USAPA's ratified DOH list (if the contract gets ratified).

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

PI - just remember what they have in store for you. You were never furloughed and it looks like they think putting a 97 hire on you is a fantastic idea. Remember, that guy was out on the street 13 solid years while you put in your time.And you checked out in less than 5 years. That is some sort of commie collectivist idea in my mind, and it goes right in the trash. Remember, if they DFR, they have to come out without Wake tying a jury up, and then prove that isn't harm to you! If that isn't harm to you, I don't know what harm is then. I cannot wait to turn it right back up their own tailpipes. The next part where they get blown out of the water. They are going to try and pick one time of their choosing to jam it to you to get their land grab. You are going to hear how you are lucky to survive, and on and on. Forget it. This is NOT the Nic arb. We have moved far along, to a new bargaining agent, and a new point in time. Let them try. I guarantee you we are heading for a deal with the company. If they don't get the commensurate percentage raise, then that is too bad. They held us after we gave them profit share and a DC Plan. That will come out also. Hang tight, the end is coming on. Step one- the en banc gets demolished.

I never said I liked the Nic, I think he got most of it wrong. The thing is, the west didn't do it, Nicolau did, so I reserve my frustration with it for him. When I get frustrated with west pilots is when they start the "we saved you, kept the Titanic afloat, we had 7 year captains and by God always would have becasese we are great!" b.s.

One problem with straight DOH is just what you said above, it gives some of our guys a better position on the seniority list than west pilots that have actually worked more time at the airline. I think if USAPA was going to adopt any standard, LOS is more fair, but that's just my opinion.

I don't know how any of this will turn out. Both sides are set in concrete and neither has made any attempt to meet in the middle. I guess it will be the side that better convinces the judges what "is" is, but I think we are in for a really long ride.

 

[OTTER574]

Well I guess it is until USAPA changes the TA.

XII. Effective Date, Modification, Status of Letter of Agreement, and Duration
This Letter of Agreement:
A. Will take effect on the date of execution set forth below;
B. May be modified by written agreement of the Association and the Airline Parties
collectively;
C. Does not alter or modify any term of any agreement between the Association and
an Airline Party, which remain in full force and effect in accordance with their
terms, except as set forth herein.
9-20-05
15
D. Governs in case of conflict between one of its terms and a provision of a
collective bargaining agreement between the Association and an Airline Party;
E. Will remain in effect in accordance with its terms until each of the provisions
herein has been fulfilled, unless sooner terminated by
1. Written agreement of the Association and the Airline Parties collectively;
or
2. Termination of the Merger Agreement;
3. At the discretion of the Association, failure of consummation of the
Merger Agreement prior to October 31, 2005.


E.1. Written agreement of the Association and the Airline Parties collectively;


The devil is in the details. USAPA has the right to modify or terminate the TA, with the agreement of the company of course. When the time comes for a contract the necessary changes will be made.

Yes the devil is in the details. Big problem for usapa is that you've got to get the company to agree with this illegal scheme. In the mean time, I'm keeping my dfr powder dry.

 

[A320 Driver]

I never said I liked the Nic, I think he got most of it wrong. The thing is, the west didn't do it, Nicolau did, so I reserve my frustration with it for him. When I get frustrated with west pilots is when they start the "we saved you, kept the Titanic afloat, we had 7 year captains and by God always would have becasese we are great!" b.s.

One problem with straight DOH is just what you said above, it gives some of our guys a better position on the seniority list than west pilots that have actually worked more time at the airline. I think if USAPA was going to adopt any standard, LOS is more fair, but that's just my opinion.

I don't know how any of this will turn out. Both sides are set in concrete and neither has made any attempt to meet in the middle. I guess it will be the side that better convinces the judges what "is" is, but I think we are in for a really long ride.

Exactly

 

[BoeingBoy]

Both sides are set in concrete and neither has made any attempt to meet in the middle.

Problem is that there's no one with the authority to represent the west in an "attempt to meet in the middle." I assume that USAPA made sure that that was the case to eliminate the west's "veto" power on a combined contract, leaving USAPA free (they thought) to propose a DOH list with the east pilots being the majority needed to ratify it. Unfortunately it seems that USAPA (at least Cleary) and most of the east posters here still think USAPA is free to do whatever it wants, so I see nothing other than another DFR siuit on the horizon (if USAPA gets the company to go along with DOH and it does in fact get ratified).

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Problem is that there's no one with the authority to represent the west in an "attempt to meet in the middle." I assume that USAPA made sure that that was the case to eliminate the west's "veto" power on a combined contract, leaving USAPA free (they thought) to propose a DOH list with the east pilots being the majority needed to ratify it. Unfortunately it seems that USAPA (at least Cleary) and most of the east posters here still think USAPA is free to do whatever it wants, so I see nothing other than another DFR siuit on the horizon (if USAPA gets the company to go along with DOH and it does in fact get ratified).

Jim

You are correct, there is no one entity that has the authority to negotiate for the west, but that didn't stop them from coming up with a group to sue. There is always a way to talk if the groups are interested. Plus, they showed no interest in negotiating before USAPA was voted in, just as the east showed no interest before the Nic came out. It seems to me that our pilots group has become just like our country-it's my way or the highway. There is no room for middle ground and if you try to find it you are weak or spineless. When one side wins the other whines and gripes and does everything it can to undermine the wining side.