US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/20- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[cleardirect]

Most East USAIRWAYS pilots have a different opinion concerning this, not one from UAL. Interesting how you seem so qualified telling us what to do. We have the opinion that a guy with 17 yrs in has a better position than a new hire. We don't so casually throw his career away like you do. OK? I guess that is what you have planned with your furloughed? Must be nice to be in a position to be so callous.

Can you name another airline that had 17 year furloughed pilots? How are furloughs handled in the MAJORITY of arbitrations and integrations? Are they slotted in with captains or are the generally placed below active pilots?

So on the day you got hired at us air as a new hire. Did you have better career expectations then or 17 years later? As a new hire you expected to be junior and have pilots hired behind you. During BK you were furloughed with very little expectation of being recalled plus your were 17 years older. I would say your career was worse at the merger than as a new hire.

Don't blame anyone else for your poor career choices. Junior is junior but at least you are top of scale for pay so your 17 years are not a complete waste. You did get to fly a relic DC 9.

 

[end_of_alpa]

You know what??? This is a waste of VALUABLE time and therefore I am kicking my OWN butt into the cornfield!!!

 

[Barrister]

So, did #4770 have 17 years of service or is that actual time since hired? If not uninterupted service, then how many years did said pilot actually serve at the former US Air? At the time of the merger, was #4770 going to be recalled in the immediate future? I was looking for the information, but I am guessing #4770 has perhaps 7-8 years of actual service.

I suppose you could have made an argument during the arbitration that length of service should be used in the equation, BUT that should have been during the merger talks, mediation and arbitration.

Luv, you may have noticed that I have been posting here less and less. It's simply because we (AWA pilots) have tried to logically argue and defend our position. It's my fault for using logic. We are in the process of letting the courts decide (ultimately). As such, the AWA pilot group has been left with no alternative but to defend our position. Collectively we (both groups) have spent over 6 million dollars in arbitration, mediation & litigation. Further, "we" have lost countless opportunities on contract improvements and time off (MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS). LCC & legal counsel are the true winners with respect to the money.

Lurkers: Your airline peers are getting MUCH better wages RIGHT NOW. We are in a court battle to the very end. The only way to change this immediately is to take control of the union, get involved, change the bylaws as necessary and move together toward a new contract. The alternative is the purgatory that we are stuck in. Ultimately the courts will decide in this situation. The AWA pilots may lose. The AWA pilots may win. Your choice: get involved & participate OR keep your head in the sand.

Don't forget that as UAL stagnated, furloughed thousands
and went through its own WOLF period and lost hundreds
of millions in ESOP money then THEY changed the merger
policy and took DOH out. See Alpa v. Goose and Gander

NICDOA
NPJBke kk rb

 

[BoeingBoy]

And you equate that with a new hire, just flushing 17 yrs. down the toilet.

The old management at Crystal City flushed that 17 years down the toilet, not the west pilots or 767jetz. Why should the west pilots have to pay the price to undo the damage they didn't create? Why should a west captain slide backwards and potentially be furloughed to make up for Crystal City's decisions?

Jim

 

[88 B.T.D.]

Even though that 17 year guy on the east had the same position as a new guy on the west? What makes the junior east position of reserve f/o one number from furlough, any more valuable than the the junior west reserve f/o position one number from furlough? What makes a furloughed east pilot with NO position, more valuable than any west f/o with a job, let alone a captain? According to you it's his DOH. Most people don't see it that way.

The answer is attrition. And I know for a fact my friends from United that were hired in 99 and are now furloughed do see it that way.

 

[767jetz]

Guess what, you are unbelievably cavalier with your assumptions, and we reject them totally.Must be a joy flying with you. I can only imagine,

Wow! Lot's of bitterness here. Where do I start.

We have the opinion that a guy with 17 yrs in has a better position than a new hire.

Not if those 17 years got him only a bottom f/o position in the lowest paying equipment his airline flies. That, sir, is a new hire position. He IS entitled to be paid at the 17 year pay rate for his seat and fleet, but not entitled to take away from a west pilot of lesser years.

We don't so casually throw his career away like you do.

What career? If 17 years of service got him one number from being furloughed,it's not much of a career, was it? No one is throwing anything away. It was taken from him by years of bad management perhaps, not by merging with AWA and certainly not by the west pilots. His poor career performance happened long before AWA showed up on the scene.

A guy like Joe Monda working without interruption for a period say 1990 to 2007. And you equate that with a new hire, just flushing 17 yrs. down the toilet.

Again, see above. I do not equate that to a new hire. His own position of being at the bottom after 17 years determined that. Nothing or no one else. Tragic, yes. But that has nothing to do with AWA or the west pilots. And if he got paid commensurate to his YOS then it wasn't flushed down the toilette. His company survived an encounter with the Grim Reaper and he still has the same job he had before.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The TA is NOT A CONTRACT...

So EofA, if the east should furlough and the west has openings the east furloughees have no right to those west openings - the TA's NOT A CONTRACT, right? Or suppose the company unilaterally dropped the E190 pay rate - the TA'S NOT A CONTRACT, right? Or Tempe decides to transfer 50 A320 family aircraft to PHX - the TA'S NOT A CONTRACT, right?

Jim

 

[Freighterguynow]

Lurkers: Your airline peers are getting MUCH better wages RIGHT NOW. We are in a court battle to the very end. The only way to change this immediately is to take control of the union, get involved, change the bylaws as necessary and move together toward a new contract. The alternative is the purgatory that we are stuck in. Ultimately the courts will decide in this situation. The AWA pilots may lose. The AWA pilots may win. Your choice: get involved & participate OR keep your head in the sand.

Excellent - since there was a PHX meeting yesterday we can see you charging forward with a recall motion ?

 

[BoeingBoy]

The answer is attrition.

Ya know what's ironic? The east MC told the pilots that DOH wouldn't fly buy they most likely could protect the attrition and widebodies. That wasn't good enough for the east pilots, so under duress the MC fought for DOH. Just like they warned, it didn't fly and now the east pilots talk about how important the attrition and widebody jobs are. You threw the chance of preserving that away - nobody to blame buy yourselves.

Jim

 

[nic4us]

The TA is NOT A CONTRACT...it is a means by which the company will agree to "open" and agree to "merge" if you will, two separate CBA's into ONE. PERIOD. It is a possible means to an end....an end that as of now has not come to an end because of a lawsuit. Having said that, USAPA's, ALPA's, IAM's, etc....ONLY DUTY is to represent ALL persons in the craft or class, all those that are NOT members in good standing the same as if they WERE members in good standing under the CBA. The ONLY "contract" you OR I have IS the CBA. There is NO other "contracts". They owe ALL of us a duty to bargain for a CBA that a majority WILL RATIFY. Period. If they DO ratify a CBA, then it is THEIR DUTY to administer it on behalf of ALL the pilots affected by the CBA.



If YOU remember, the DISCRIMINATORY prong of YOUR lawsuit was discarded, so discrimination was NOT part of the Plaintiff's arguments, even though Wake allowed that word into the jury instructions. "Bad faith" was THEE only argument your anti-labor union lawyers made. But that point is now MOOT!



But if and UNTIL you vote, you still get...NOTHING FROM NOTHING! At that, sir, is the real REASON the 9th rules the way they did....to prevent us from the purgatory hell of the M-I-N-O-R-I-T-Y!!!! That, sir, is a FACT!! You can twist their words any way you want but the result is still the same.

The TA is most certainly is a Letter of Agreement, just as the West 330 payrates, the 757 growth LOA, LOA93 etc.

It carries the weight of the CBAs and is a tripartite contract between the new company (LCC) and the West pilots, and the east pilots. It is not a possible means to an ends, it is a contractual means to an ends.

Guess what that contract says. Seniority integration via ALPA merger policy. Guess what else. usapa inherited the TA, along with the West's contract 2004, and the east's contract or LOA93 or whatever you people call it.

So, as an individual who has the right to a duty of fair representation from usapa, I am going to hold them to the contract I have as a "West pilot in the service of AWA", with the east pilots and the company. Failing that, I am going to hold the company to that same contract.

Got more news for you. A constitution and bylaws, is not a contract, but by being an objector, I never implied that I agreed to, will follow, or adhere to the usapa seniority theft scheme and the fake union's C&BLs.

All this noise about the last lawsuit is just that , noise. Remember, that suit was dismissed. 9th said not ripe. They did leave usapa to bargain in good faith for all US Airways pilots under the knowledge of the pain of an "unquestionably ripe DFR".

I would think "in good faith" means, as you contractually agreed to.

 

[nic4us]

You know what??? This is a waste of VALUABLE time and therefore I am kicking my OWN butt into the cornfield!!!

Come back when you have a valid arguement.

 

[traderjake]

The east MC told the pilots that DOH wouldn't fly buy they most likely could protect the attrition and widebodies. That wasn't good enough for the east pilots, so under duress the MC fought for DOH. Just like they warned, it didn't fly and now the east pilots talk about how important the attrition and widebody jobs are. You threw the chance of preserving that away - nobody to blame buy yourselves.

Jim

That's exactly what happened.

We could have gotten credit for our retirement attrition but due to our own stupidity we never asked for it.

We have no one to blame but ourselves.

 

[OTTER574]

The TA is most certainly is a Letter of Agreement, just as the West 330 payrates, the 757 growth LOA, LOA93 etc.

It carries the weight of the CBAs and is a tripartite contract between the new company (LCC) and the West pilots, and the east pilots. It is not a possible means to an ends, it is a contractual means to an ends.

Guess what that contract says. Seniority integration via ALPA merger policy. Guess what else. usapa inherited the TA, along with the West's contract 2004, and the east's contract or LOA93 or whatever you people call it.

So, as an individual who has the right to a duty of fair representation from usapa, I am going to hold them to the contract I have as a "West pilot in the service of AWA", with the east pilots and the company. Failing that, I am going to hold the company to that same contract.

Got more news for you. A constitution and bylaws, is not a contract, but by being an objector, I never implied that I agreed to, will follow, or adhere to the usapa seniority theft scheme and the fake union's C&BLs.

All this noise about the last lawsuit is just that , noise. Remember, that suit was dismissed. 9th said not ripe. They did leave usapa to bargain in good faith for all US Airways pilots under the knowledge of the pain of an "unquestionably ripe DFR".

I would think "in good faith" means, as you contractually agreed to.

Maybe the BRAINTRUSTS of usapa would like to explain LETTERS OF AGREEMENT between the company and both pilot groups west and east and how they pertain to certain payrates and work rules. LOA 93 comes to mind for an example that a certain group of pilots (east) work under and how these are somehow not part of a CONTRACT as stated by end of alpa.

 

[OTTER574]

The TA is NOT A CONTRACT...it is a means by which the company will agree to "open" and agree to "merge" if you will, two separate CBA's into ONE. PERIOD. It is a possible means to an end....an end that as of now has not come to an end because of a lawsuit. Having said that, USAPA's, ALPA's, IAM's, etc....ONLY DUTY is to represent ALL persons in the craft or class, all those that are NOT members in good standing the same as if they WERE members in good standing under the CBA. The ONLY "contract" you OR I have IS the CBA. There is NO other "contracts". They owe ALL of us a duty to bargain for a CBA that a majority WILL RATIFY. Period. If they DO ratify a CBA, then it is THEIR DUTY to administer it on behalf of ALL the pilots affected by the CBA.

The TA is most certainly a LETTER OF AGREEMENT to both west and east contracts.

View attachment Transition%20Agreement7.pdf

 

[OTTER574]

The TA is NOT A CONTRACT...it is a means by which the company will agree to "open" and agree to "merge" if you will, two separate CBA's into ONE. PERIOD. It is a possible means to an end....an end that as of now has not come to an end because of a lawsuit. Having said that, USAPA's, ALPA's, IAM's, etc....ONLY DUTY is to represent ALL persons in the craft or class, all those that are NOT members in good standing the same as if they WERE members in good standing under the CBA. The ONLY "contract" you OR I have IS the CBA. There is NO other "contracts". They owe ALL of us a duty to bargain for a CBA that a majority WILL RATIFY. Period. If they DO ratify a CBA, then it is THEIR DUTY to administer it on behalf of ALL the pilots affected by the CBA.



If YOU remember, the DISCRIMINATORY prong of YOUR lawsuit was discarded, so discrimination was NOT part of the Plaintiff's arguments, even though Wake allowed that word into the jury instructions. "Bad faith" was THEE only argument your anti-labor union lawyers made. But that point is now MOOT!



But if and UNTIL you vote, you still get...NOTHING FROM NOTHING! At that, sir, is the real REASON the 9th rules the way they did....to prevent us from the purgatory hell of the M-I-N-O-R-I-T-Y!!!! That, sir, is a FACT!! You can twist their words any way you want but the result is still the same.

Taken from the TA


VI. Operational Pilot Integration
A. Except as provided in paragraph B. below, the airline operations of America West
and US Airways, with respect to pilots, shall be merged no later than twelve (12)
months following the later of (i) completion of the integrated pilot seniority list
and (ii) negotiation of the Single Agreement provided that if by that date a single
FAA operating certificate has not been issued, the airline operations, with respect
to pilots, will be merged effective with the first bid period following thirty (30)
days after the issuance of such certificate. The Airline Parties will make every
reasonable effort in good faith to secure a single FAA operating certificate for
America West and US Airways as promptly as practicable. The merger of the
airline operations, with respect to pilots, under this paragraph A. is defined as the
“Operational Pilot Integration.”

Take a look back at all the posts by usapa supporters on this board and also in a federal court of law. They state words to the effect that (ii) will never happen to prevent (i) that already has happened which is the NIC and was accepted by lcc. This letter ACCEPTING the NIC by meeting all the criteria in the TA was signed and dated by lcc ceo doug parker.

Just emailed a copy of this letter to doug and company officials to help refresh their memories.


The 9th's opinion has not changed the TA and or our contract. Single Agreement/contract between lcc and the pilots of uairways means the NIC is the list.