US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/26- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[veritasaequitas]

That's why it's taking the ninth more than 4 months to stay judge Wake. Wouldn't you think the stay would have been issued by now if it were coming? I sure would.

Judge Wake did issue a stay, that essentially puts proceedings on hold until the 9th rules.

 

[fatherabraham]

Which is exactly what NIC was designed to mitigate. If you were in the top 20 percent pre-merger, your would be in the top 20 percent post-merger. That is fundamentally the fairest and most logical method of integrating two separate lists in the new and larger company. Good thing the NIC is the inescapable list going forward since it also makes the most logical sense and is unquestionably more fair than any DOH scenario.

Golf,
Just click your heels three times over and over while repeating above.
Fundamentally BS, as all know above ONLY works with like (similar longevity) workforce. Hence the C&R's that offered
way more than FAIR to the westies. But oh no, greed went for all......as you stood nothing to lose. You don't seem to
be so confident in your never ending "truth" statement above.
FA

 

[CallawayGolf]

Your post is utter nonsense. There are NOT more upgrade opportunities now that we are merged. Where pray tell are they. The fact is that the EAST F/O who should get the RETIREMENT slot of a EAST retiree will lose it to a WESTIE who has been here years less.........pay attention now here is where it gets complicated........the EAST F/O is probably already 55-58 years old and will be gone in 5-10 years. He will loose the seat to a guy who not only has been here years less than he but is also 5-10 years younger. NOW TELL ME I DON'T HAVE IT RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We have all looked at the list we ALL know where we stand and we all know what has to be done.!!!!!

VNIIMN
NPJB

How many planes in the US fleet on 9/26/2005 vs. how many today? How many city pairs or how many pilots? We all know the economy has done a number on more than just the airline industry and that all majors have reduced their fleets and growth plans since 2008, but surely you can still count and see that the new US airways is still bigger in every respect than the airline that was in bankruptcy in 2005. If the economy improves when the Dems get tossed in November, US will grow and expand again.

Either way an east FO's plight doesn't change the fairness of the dispassionate arbitration award. #1000 on the AAA list is a co-equal with #1000 on the HP list. That's the way NIC ruled and in my opinion that is the best and only way to ensure fairness was maintained. Now that ALPA is off the property NIC is the only list that can be used. Everyone but the blinded-by-anger east seems to understand this.

I support your right to vote. I do not support USAPA's blatant violation of the law.

 

[HPDriver]

I read all the transcripts sir.

Uh, it's very obvious you didn't.

And glad to see you've learned to respect the west with your "sir"-ing.

Nice.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Golf,
Just click your heels three times over and over while repeating above.
Fundamentally BS, as all know above ONLY works with like (similar longevity) workforce. Hence the C&R's that offered
way more than FAIR to the westies. But oh no, greed went for all......as you stood nothing to lose. You don't seem to
be so confident in your never ending "truth" statement above.
FA

I'm not sure you elucidated your point well enough for me to respond other than to say - I am absolutely confident that no other seniority list will be in a new CBA for the pilots of US Airways. No one can be confident of a TA passing ratification until USAPA follows the court imposed injunction to negotiate in good faith and puts one out for a vote. I do perceive that USAPA fears this beyond anything else because they refuse to move negotiations forward. They really don't want to know what the pilots are thinking at this point in the process and probably for a very good reason.

 

[veritasaequitas]

Uh, it's very obvious you didn't.

And glad to see you've learned to respect the west with your "sir"-ing.

Nice.

What makes it obvious, please share it with the readers of this thread sir.

 

[Metroyet]

Judge Wake did issue a stay, that essentially puts proceedings on hold until the 9th rules.

No wonder you're so confident with your singular, solitary "vote". Clearly, you don't know when you're comparing apples to oranges and how absolutely irrelevant one is compared to the other.

Go back a few threads and read slowly.

 

[veritasaequitas]

No wonder you're so confident with your singular, solitary "vote". Clearly, you don't know when you're comparing apples to oranges and how absolutely irrelevant one is compared to the other.

Go back a few threads and read slowly.

I am comparing roses, you are giving your rose a different name, but it is still a rose.

 

[Metroyet]

I am comparing roses, you are giving your rose a different name, but it is still a rose.

I assure you, from where you pull your "information", nothing smells like a rose.

 

[veritasaequitas]

I assure you, from where you pull your "information", nothing smells like a rose.

I read the stay information on the America West pilots web site.
Army of Leonidas web site


If you click on read more at the bottom of each teaser, it will provide more information.

 

[luvn737s]

I think the Honorable Judge Wake gave you every possible rule of law in your favor, unfortunately it brought you back to square one, no combined operations until a joint contract.

Perhaps, but I wouldn't be surprised if Judge Wake didn't demand that the terms of the Transition Agreement be amended (or another order handed down effectively doing the same thing) to allow West Bases in East Hubs/vice versa and allowing either side to fly either metal as a means of insuring that USAPA's delay tactics did not yield any more benefits to the east.

Wake tried to give USAPA as many chaces as possible to see that it was time to "wake" up and serve ALL the pilots of US equally. Cleary remains oblivious.

 

[Reed Richards]

Sorry to burst the bubble. Wake Can Impose the Nic. It's been discussed and is in the court records. The only thing holding that decision up is the 9th, (how many months does it take to issue a stay?) and USAPA's behavior. When the 9th upholds, and USAPA spends more time resources negotiating in bad faith with no intention to fairly represent ALL the US Airways pilots, you can expect Wake to issue the order. It's already been eluded to. You're vote doesn't mean Jack S*** when it becomes clear to Wake that it's only being used as a tool of discrimination. Guess What? It's already been made clear to the Honorable Judge Wake.

Seham made sure of that.

The Ninth has actually had a de facto stay in place for going on two months. Wake did it himself.

Unlike the characterizations here by the peanut gallery, there is an understood level of professionalism at play within the Federal and Appeal Court Systems. Nobody with any real ethics or brains doubts any of the legal players (Judges, Bigger Judges, and the Legal teams of both sides) are acting in a manner they at least themselves consider appropriate to further their own true and honest beliefs. Judge Wake, a seasoned and former litigator, has done a man’s job of bringing a halt to USAPA’s attempt at restoring DOH as a tenet of airline mergers. For almost 18 months now, his intervention has been doing its magic, at least in the eyes of most Westies. Six new 330 Captains and a bunch of other upgrades on the East has us all thinking a little different.

Unfortunately for the Honorable Judge, the NC Breeger decision rendered his current line of rational (at least as to ripness) into doubt early on (or that of the NC Judges, I guess you could look at that one from either side.) I won’t bore you with too much, but Judge Wake has been doing a slow retreat, ever so cautious and methodical, from his original track. He absolutely respects the sanctity of “the vote.” That folks is a fact.

There is no doubt in my mind a clear signal was given by the Ninth to Judge Wake that a stay was necessary, and I don’t pretend it was necessarily because the Addington judgment was going to be overturned. Who really knows the answer to that. But somehow, he did get the message. Almost two months ago, Judge Wake himself stayed the proceedings. You can read a little more colorful account of that here (scroll down to “To Stay or Not to Stay.) http://unfactualbias.com/wordpress/?m=201002

Read and talk about it among yourselves, and maybe show a little class and not make this about the lawyers and Judges you all seem to either love or hate. All those legal eagles will all still be in business long from now, maybe a few unpaid for a lot of fine work. But professionals none the less. Win or lose, this case will probably stand tall above most others in the area of union rights and privileges.

RR

 

[Metroyet]

I read the stay information on the America West pilots web site.
Army of Leonidas web site


If you click on read more at the bottom of each teaser, it will provide more information.

Uh Huh. And with regards to the Stay issued by the 9th? The one that actually matters? The one which I referred to that you mistook and referenced out of place? Where do you find that one?

Wake only issued the stay on the damages trial because the 9th hasn't ruled yet. Common sense would dictate that there is no reason to go down the damages path until the 9th reveals it's verdict. My point is....now follow me closely here....don't want you veering off path again....there is no reason to hold a damages trial until the 9th upholds Wake. That's it. there is your apples. Here is the oranges. The 9TH has NOT YET ISSUED THE STAY. Why? If they were going to issue an order staying Wakes ruling, it probably shouldn't take 4 months to say so.

You're talking about a stay wake issued for the practicality of basic administration of a case. I'm referring to the non-existent stay issued by the 9th that would actually mean something.

Short Version:

If the 9th was going to reverse, it would have happened by now. Prepare the CIRP team, and order a case of Kleenex. This thing is soon over.

 

[end_of_alpa]

A merger takes two formerly separate companies and combines them into one new company. New stock symbol "LCC", new stock and new stock holders, new board of directors all mean that a new operating company emerged on 9/27/2005. The two former companies cease to exist and a brand new one emerges which assumes all of the rights and responsibilities of the legacy companies.

If it had been an acquisition this would have meant that one company's assets would have been acquired by an existing company in exchange for a payment in consideration for those assets. If AWA Holding Company would have acquired US Airways Group, the surviving company could have just terminated all employees of the former US Airways and begun hiring new employees to fill open slots. I went through an acquisition at a job I had long ago and lost my accumulated vacation time and any other benefits I had of working for the acquired company. So I went to work at the same location and reported to the same manager but I worked for a new company and I had a new date of hire. This obviously didn't happen in the HP/US merger.

So HP and US merged an a new company was established to replace the old. This is why the two labor groups have to be merged rather than appending one list to the bottom of the other. This is also why the change of control didn't occur. Yes a new company exists but the specific language of the change of control wasn't triggered specifically because the transaction was a reverse merger rather than a direct acquisition. Accept it or not, the number one on both seniority lists were effectively equals as were the number 500 and the number 1000. NIC didn't use a straight ratio, but he had logical reasons for establishing the list the way he did.

Again, all one has to do is read the annual reports and listen to Doug Parker and Scott Kirby.

You keep repeating yourself when most everyone here KNOWS the facts. I guess if you just say it enough it will come true.

Not debating this anymore.

The moderator said we don;t need to go back and "rehash" this and I agree. Go back two years ago and reread what was written on the subject. This subject leads us down a road that goes in circles now and I agree with the moderators. I'm making every attempt to comply with the moderators wishes and we do not need to revisit this subject.

Please don't bring it up again.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Again, all one has to do is read the annual reports and listen to Doug Parker and Scott Kirby.

You keep repeating yourself when most everyone here KNOWS the facts. I guess if you just say it enough it will come true.

Not debating this anymore.

The moderator said we don;t need to go back and "rehash" this and I agree. Go back two years ago and reread what was written on the subject. This subject leads us down a road that goes in circles now and I agree with the moderators. I'm making every attempt to comply with the moderators wishes and we do not need to revisit this subject.

Please don't bring it up again.

I didn't bring up the banned topic of who bought who. The fact that a new company emerged while the two former companies effectively dissolved is germane to the topic of why an integrated seniority list was required and why DOH was unquestionably the most unfair method of doing so.

If east posters would refrain from engaging in the futile and purely emotional discussions of the number of years of DOH difference between two names on the combined list, the whole topic of the 2005 merger would never come up. This emotionally-charged retort is always used to throw a logical, fact-based discussion off-topic because it easily fans the flames of the shallow-thinking east pilot who I assume choses to ignore easily comprehendible facts regarding binding arbitration and the various agreements which gave rise to the award.

The NIC wasn't on trial and nothing the 9th rules on will relieve USAPA of its obligations to negotiate in good faith using the NIC as the basis for section 22 of the CBA. IMO the best you can hope for from the 9th is that they rule that the case lacks ripeness and then they will very precisely and narrowly define when a DFR case of this nature is ripe. If such a ripeness definition comes down (I personally believe they will affirm that it is ripe), this specific definition of ripeness will be like a noose around USAPA's neck preventing them from doing anything to trigger ripeness. If they take one more step or make one more pronouncement that they plan to pursue DOH, ripeness will be triggered on they will be on the fast track back into federal court. That's the best outcome USAPA can hope for. Far more likely is that the 9th affirms Wake and he puts the damages trail back on the docket while issuing a new, more punitive injunction to stop USAPA from further harming the west class.