US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/26- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Flippin43]

Evidence, huh.

Yeah like this one by Jetjok1 post #196


Clearly your views are sinking into the minority, keep in mind how often you have reminded us of what the MAJORITY gets to do. In this case........ Move on.



Divide and Conquer?..................Hardly, What, there's maybe 10 of you on here (5 East and 5 West). Hardly a divide and conquer number for the masses. The rest of us, here, have a daily laugh at the day in and day out, old news bantering and bashing that has no chance for resolve because you guys are hashing things that happened in the past. Very few intelligent remarks about the future and what needs to be done to make this thing work. It's like watching the "10 stupid dog tricks nightly on Letterman". I discount most everything HP pilot has to say. His ranting and raving is boring but he did say one thing, IMHO, right on one of his last posts- Most of us out East are waiting for the 9th Court's ruling, WILL ABIDE BY THAT DECISION! and move on accordingly. We played our cards- we deal with the outcome like a professional and accept the results! It's the right thing to do!


Maybe we should speak again.

Flip

 

[Richard]

I have just deleted another bunch of posts. What about NO PERSONAL remarks/name calling/insults don't you people understand?

The rules are very clear and are posted at the top of EVERY FORUM as an announcement. READ THEM. OBSERVE THEM.

If we have to delete more posts, we may just close this topic for a few days....

You folks are supposed to be adults....time to act that way. The current behavior will not be tolerated.

Again--NOTHING you do or say here is going to affect the outcome of this dispute....

The corn field is getting quite crowded.....

Thank you.

 

[nic4us]

Nonetheless, Our LLC is going to be formed and prepared for the day when unionism is off the property. Then we file EEOC claims against, not you, but US AIRWAYS for disparate treatment claims if they fail to honor our time in service like all the other employee groups. I'll bet you US Airways see's things OUR way over AOL. The list is a PRODUCT of labor negotiations. The EEOC is about statutory employment rights, absent labor union CBA's. Rights that you and I have ONLY in respect to our time in service and qualifications for the job as employees at will.

I simply fail to understand why you think there is an EEOC claim to be had. I would bet USAirway s does not see things your way, nor would the EEOC. Fact of the matter is, in order to file a successful discrimination claim, it would help if you were actually discriminated against, and you were not. So the EEOC is a dead end for your cause, ( which by the way would be illegal if it were determined to be age based).

A couple other facts you may wish to consider.

1. None of the other employee groups were integrated by time in service, as you suggest. All the other groups were integrated by their union policy, company policy and/or binding arbitration. Age, race, religion,sex, retaliation,gender, or national origin had nothing to do with it, therefore the EEOC could care less.

2. You have no more time in service at LCC than any other employee. Your seniority was determined based on your union's policies, same as all other employee groups. What you seem to be advocating is an illegal redistribution that would be discriminatory against the West class based on an age stereotyping, and yes that would be illegal.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I simply fail to understand why you think there is an EEOC claim to be had. I would bet USAirway s does not see things your way, nor would the EEOC. Fact of the matter is, in order to file a successful discrimination claim, it would help if you were actually discriminated against, and you were not. So the EEOC is a dead end for your cause, ( which by the way would be illegal if it were determined to be age based).

A couple other facts you may wish to consider.

1. None of the other employee groups were integrated by time in service, as you suggest. All the other groups were integrated by their union policy, company policy and/or binding arbitration. Age, race, religion,sex, retaliation,gender, or national origin had nothing to do with it, therefore the EEOC could care less.

2. You have no more time in service at LCC than any other employee. Your seniority was determined based on your union's policies, same as all other employee groups. What you seem to be advocating is an illegal redistribution that would be discriminatory against the West class based on an age stereotyping, and yes that would be illegal.

Seham brought this up in his rebuttal time at the ninth. It was like he knew the appeal he was in the middle of would be lost so he had better throw something else out for the east pilots to hang their hopes on again. I almost hit the floor when I heard him say it.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Seham brought this up in his rebuttal time at the ninth. It was like he knew the appeal he was in the middle of would be lost so he had better throw something else out for the east pilots to hang their hopes on again. I almost hit the floor when I heard him say it.

You mean like Jacob's stellar performance who brought up the Federal Arbitration Act which DOESN'T APPLY TO LABOR UNIONS???

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Some of the wisest people accept the counsel of a variety of people before forming an opinion. I encourage HP FA to continue contributing his legal insight and non-pilot-centric viewpoint.

The entire Crew Resource Management concept arose out of the need for more and freer communication, not less. You would think someone who claims to be a pilot would be aware of this, but perhaps old habits die hard. Metaphorically at least.

I agree, HP FA has the legal knowledge and a grasp of union workings. He is not shy about putting in his opinion but we are all allowed that..aren't we?

 

[end_of_alpa]

Yeah like this one by Jetjok1 post #196


Clearly your views are sinking into the minority, keep in mind how often you have reminded us of what the MAJORITY gets to do. In this case........ Move on.



Divide and Conquer?..................Hardly, What, there's maybe 10 of you on here (5 East and 5 West). Hardly a divide and conquer number for the masses. The rest of us, here, have a daily laugh at the day in and day out, old news bantering and bashing that has no chance for resolve because you guys are hashing things that happened in the past. Very few intelligent remarks about the future and what needs to be done to make this thing work. It's like watching the "10 stupid dog tricks nightly on Letterman". I discount most everything HP pilot has to say. His ranting and raving is boring but he did say one thing, IMHO, right on one of his last posts- Most of us out East are waiting for the 9th Court's ruling, WILL ABIDE BY THAT DECISION! and move on accordingly. We played our cards- we deal with the outcome like a professional and accept the results! It's the right thing to do!

Jetjok1 is one opinion.

The real question you should ask is how many of the east pilots are like me???

My day is equal to your day.

Good luck!


Maybe we should speak again.

Flip

 

[end_of_alpa]

Divide and Conquer?..................Hardly, What, there's maybe 10 of you on here (5 East and 5 West). Hardly a divide and conquer number for the masses. The rest of us, here, have a daily laugh at the day in and day out, old news bantering and bashing that has no chance for resolve because you guys are hashing things that happened in the past. Very few intelligent remarks about the future and what needs to be done to make this thing work. It's like watching the "10 stupid dog tricks nightly on Letterman". I discount most everything HP pilot has to say. His ranting and raving is boring but he did say one thing, IMHO, right on one of his last posts- Most of us out East are waiting for the 9th Court's ruling, WILL ABIDE BY THAT DECISION! and move on accordingly. We played our cards- we deal with the outcome like a professional and accept the results! It's the right thing to do!

I agree with you on everything except the last part:

I'm a professional too. My day is of equal value to yours. Make your path and I'll make mine.

You will abide by that decision. I will not!

The judge can't make me vote yes. The judge can't make me apply the CBA. The judge can't make me honor the picket line.

If any of you know what happened at PHI in the gulf a few years ago, you should also know that it took only 1/10 of the pilots to cross the picket line and break the strike. If my day is worth less than your day, I'm crossing and you have to convince the affected MINORITY not to.

If 1500 west pilots don't get their way, they cross the picket line.

If 1500 east pilots don't get their way, they cross the picket line.

WINNER: US AIRWAYS!!!

See you on the picket line!!! Looks like employment-at-will!!

 

[end_of_alpa]

Some of the wisest people accept the counsel of a variety of people before forming an opinion. I encourage HP FA to continue contributing his legal insight and non-pilot-centric viewpoint.

The entire Crew Resource Management concept arose out of the need for more and freer communication, not less. You would think someone who claims to be a pilot would be aware of this, but perhaps old habits die hard. Metaphorically at least.

HP doesn't fly with me in the cockpit and is not a PILOT, let alone a PROFESSIONAL pilot! ERGO, I don't take flying advice from him. He's not a LAWYER either, ERGO I don't take legal advice from him. HP is not a PILOT for US Airways, ERGO I don't fly with him. HP is not a member in good standing, ERGO I don't VOTE with him.

HP is not a legal scholar on RLA and has never RUN A UNION POSITION, ERGO I don't believe in him???

WHY SHOULD YOU???

I understand CRM extremely well. Any pilot over on the side of the river who knows ME will tell you that when I fly I put my best forward. I take humility over bragging any day.


FEEL FREE TO FLAME ME!

 

[end_of_alpa]

Yeah like this one by Jetjok1 post #196


Clearly your views are sinking into the minority, keep in mind how often you have reminded us of what the MAJORITY gets to do. In this case........ Move on.



Divide and Conquer?..................Hardly, What, there's maybe 10 of you on here (5 East and 5 West). Hardly a divide and conquer number for the masses. The rest of us, here, have a daily laugh at the day in and day out, old news bantering and bashing that has no chance for resolve because you guys are hashing things that happened in the past. Very few intelligent remarks about the future and what needs to be done to make this thing work. It's like watching the "10 stupid dog tricks nightly on Letterman". I discount most everything HP pilot has to say. His ranting and raving is boring but he did say one thing, IMHO, right on one of his last posts- Most of us out East are waiting for the 9th Court's ruling, WILL ABIDE BY THAT DECISION! and move on accordingly. We played our cards- we deal with the outcome like a professional and accept the results! It's the right thing to do!


Maybe we should speak again.

Flip

I'm confused...when did we speak BEFORE?????

 

[CallawayGolf]

You mean like Jacob's stellar performance who brought up the Federal Arbitration Act which DOESN'T APPLY TO LABOR UNIONS???

Are you referring to the binding arbitration that resulted in the NIC? Isn’t this the one that the honorable judge Wake issued an injunction against USAPA ordering them to negotiate in good faith with the same? And when USAPA petitioned the 9th to remove the injunction that forced them to abide by binding arbitration, the 9th denied the request thus affirming that the binding arbitration wasn’t to be abrogated during the appeal process? Is that the arbitration that you claim labor unions do not have to abide by? Funny how no one outside the east pilot circle and their well-paid “yes men” seem to agree with your take on the matter. Keep saying it though and maybe you can eventually convince yourself that you are right.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Funny how no one outside the east pilot circle and their well-paid “yes men” seem to agree with your take on the matter.

Just to clarify what Callaway is saying, it's apparent to many on the West that the "east circle" does not mean all East pilots. There's a lot of pilots on both sides of the Mississippi who are anxious to get this behind us. I know this to be true from speaking with many West pilots as well as several East pilots on the jump seat. I have yet to run into an East pilot like end_of_alpa. Ever east pilot I've had on the jumpseat in the last couple of weeks have all said pretty much the same thing: we're going to move on.

Our families deserve pay raises, better job protections and better schedules. There are some on both sides who would like to keep the vitriol alive and well as those folks know nothing other than being miserable people themselves. But for the rest of us, we will move on. Together.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

I agree with you on everything except the last part:

I'm a professional too. My day is of equal value to yours. Make your path and I'll make mine.

You will abide by that decision. I will not!

The judge can't make me vote yes. The judge can't make me apply the CBA. The judge can't make me honor the picket line.

If any of you know what happened at PHI in the gulf a few years ago, you should also know that it took only 1/10 of the pilots to cross the picket line and break the strike. If my day is worth less than your day, I'm crossing and you have to convince the affected MINORITY not to.

If 1500 west pilots don't get their way, they cross the picket line.

If 1500 east pilots don't get their way, they cross the picket line.

WINNER: US AIRWAYS!!!

See you on the picket line!!! Looks like employment-at-will!!

Live by collectivism, die by collectivism.

You have a job where the group makes your decisions, if you want to make decisions about your own job, go into business for yourself.

 

[hp_fa]

I don't expect to be patronized by anyone on the forum, friendly or otherwise. That is not the point.

It was not meant to be patronizing. I regret that you took it that way.

The "issue" with him is NOT his conclusions....it's his MOTIVE! If you are a pilot for US Airways, and I presume you are, I value your "opinion" on a scale of 1 to 10 as a 10. That is because you have a potential 1/5200 vote. So it matters to me only in that regard. His advice, "truth", legal analysis, whatever, leads me to believe otherwise. Of course, if the union goes away (and I believe that is HIS ultimate objective), then he is the same as you and I and we compete on the open market. I know that HP doesn't have the capabilities to compete with you and I so I therefore don't care about him in that respect. He's a "legal" analyst here because he either has nothing better to do, he's trying to learn the law on-line or he is a management/corporate/law firm plant.

My wish ("motive" is too strong a word for how I feel) is to see a wrong series of acts corrected. In this case those acts revolve around the various facts that arose regarding the pilot integration after the merger, including the failure to abide by an agreement to accept the results of a full and binding arbitration that was fully intended to resolve all seniority issues between the pilots of the former America West Airlines and the former US Airways.

You are absolutely wrong that it is my wish to see the pilot's union go away. I have repeatedly posted on the US Aviation site that unions are absolutely needed in the air transportation industry. It is, perhaps unfortunately, the nature of the beast in this business, but I absolutely deny that my intent is to have the pilots not be unionized.

On the other hand I would like very much to see the union terminate all dealings with Lee Seham and his firm. They have been demonstrably wrong on so many things that it defies logic that his firm is still employed by the union. This goes all the way back to the advice, in the public record or otherwise public information, that he appears to have given Mr. Bradford when he was seeking to form a union for the stated intent of somehow overcoming the Nicolau arbitration award.

As for your theories on why I am here I am not trying to learn law online. I was employed in that field for ten years. I also am not a management/corporate or law firm plant. I have taken my share of shots at the management of this company, more than enough to not be welcome as an employee. If I was working for a law firm, which I am not, I would likely be restricted on what I could or would say online by attorney/client privilege, which also does not apply because I am not so employed or restricted.

I have been let back on the forum because I refrain from flaming people. I am not flaming HP. Thanks for flaming ME!!

If the moderator is reading this PLEASE don't remove it. I would like it to remain a PROOF that I am trying to be reasonable and not trying to "name call" and violate the rules of the board.

I'm sorry if you believe I am flaming you. I doubt that anyone else here believes that I was trying to flame you. I was, rather, trying to have a civil discussion. Remember, you have the option to ignore me on these boards and never again see a single thing I post. The option is yours.

Does he work for AOL, LLC??? Where does HE fit in in the grand scheme of things?? It's one thing to involve yourself here because YOU are a pilot and have a vote. Why does HE care??? Shouldn't you be questionable of the Trojan horse?? Who does HE work for. Leonidas?? US Airways? Litigation law firms mean't to destroy labor unions??? WHO? Divide and conquer. What a better place than here!

The answer is "None of the above."

Have a nice day and remember to fly safe.

 

[luvn737s]

Looks like the communications penalty idea doesn't float on these boards any better than did at the BPR meeting.