US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/26- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Black Swan]

That's nothing but USAPA propaganda. Trying to rally your fellow east pilots to keep the fight going is a losing battle.

The overwhelming consensus out east is a holding pattern and nothing more. Most out east are awaiting the results of USAPA's appeal as well as the LOA93 arbitration results before they decided which way to go.

Deciding which way to go? Do you really think you are going to get an offer from the company? And if you do, will it even be anything worthwhile? As far as you knowing the east consensus? Do I even have to comment on that?

 

[Black Swan]

That's nothing but USAPA propaganda. Trying to rally your fellow east pilots to keep the fight going is a losing battle.

The overwhelming consensus out east is a holding pattern and nothing more. Most out east are awaiting the results of USAPA's appeal as well as the LOA93 arbitration results before they decided which way to go.

Two decisions that are going to turn WESTWORLD on its' head.

 

[hp_fa]

53 page findings "as the judge saw it". And there is the rub.

I apologize for having totally missed your post last night.

As for the 53 page findings, of course that document would reflect how the judge saw it. As I said, I believe he got it right.

Secondly, your poor choice of words again leads you to an "illogical" conclusion. Remember, you have little clue how appeals WORK as I have pointed out to you many times. The appeals court does not "rule" as to "findings of facts and conclusions of law". Appeals courts (and our SCOTUS) usually have formatted their opinions as such:

1. History of the case
2. Pertinent case law as to the motions and procedural rules
3. Explanation of their views as the case law supports it
4. Affirmation, partial affirmation and partial reversal or Reversal.

I don't remember using a poor choice of words. The 53 page document contained conclusions of law, as well as the facts that caused the judge to make those conclusions of law. A brief history of the case is also laid out in there.

Is the 53 page document all that is in the record on appeal? No. It, along with the submitted briefs of the parties, would however be natural starting points for the judges and clerks of the 9th to start reviewing what the judge saw and why he ruled certain ways. They would then backtrack into the appropriate areas of the record on appeal.

What again has picked MY interest is WHY YOU HAVE SUCH AN INTEREST in this case and participate on a forum that HAS NO MEANING TO YOU IN YOUR WORLD. If you wish to practice law, why don't you apply your acumen in court and PROVE YOUR validity before a jury instead of trying to convince the numerous electrons on this webboard of your plethora of wisdom???

In all honesty: Why do you CARE??? You don't have a vote NOR a qualifying pilot certificate. You know you won't change my vote NOR those of at least 2,500 other pilots here. I happen to KNOW that the overwhelming MAJORITY of East pilots don't even come to this forum. They even quit going to pilotloop.com and hardly ANY East pilots participate on the Cactus forum, unless maybe they were former ALPA. In short, no matter what the outcome the court decides, East pilots KNOW that West pilots wil S--B if USAPA fails to get a CBA with the company to vote on.

The last I knew I don't need to be employed by US Airways, have a qualifying pilot certificate or have a direct interest in the outcome of this issue in order to engage in comments on this public message board. The administrators of this public message board have made it clear that it is public and posting here is not restricted to only, in this case, pilots of US Airways.

Answer me this: Can the court ORDER ME, JUST ME, NO ONE ELSE, to support a CBA by if I don't want to?

No. I've said that before. The court can, and has, ordered through its injunction that USAPA include in any contract put out for ratification the provisions of the Nicolau seniority list that was arrived at after agreed upon binding arbitration. The court has never tried to impose any requirement as to how individual pilots choose to vote in any matter submitted to them for ratification. I do note however that USAPA has not submitted a contract to its members for potential ratification. Why?

Once again I apologize for having missed your post yesterday, thereby delaying this response.

 

[luvn737s]

So USAPA is offering protection in the form of separate operations? Are they not required to offer equal protection to all members, or is USAPA the private club of the former USAirways pilots? And do the pilots get a say in whether or not they want such "protection"?

It's time to force USAPA to act. The pilots need to demand that Cleary be stripped from his presidency for failing his fiduciary duty by continuing to funnel money to Seham without an end in sight. And where is the transparency that USAPA promised? Can anyone provide a link to the 2010 USAPA budget? Just how much are they willing to throw away fighting their own pilots while other more valuable needs are left unfunded? Why don't pilots demand continuous active polling and the consequent actions by the BPR in response to such polling? Don't simply put a little poll widget on the website and think that you are accomplishing anything. Employ Wilson Center or similar polling agencies and contact the pilots rather than relying on them to participate via the website.

Could it be that the BPR isn't interested in responding to the needs of the pilots? Could it be that they are under the impression that they give the marching orders to the line pilots? Must their hand be forced before they decide to take the job of representing ALL US PILOTS seriously?

 

[nic4us]

Two decisions that are going to turn WESTWORLD on its' head.

Yul Brynner was awesome. "et cetera, et cetera, et cetera".

 

[end_of_alpa]

Now how could that be? We have been told that everything ALPA is bad and if these guys were trained under ALPA they must be bad too. No wait we were told that usapa is a different organization and that the leadership was not from ALPA. I am getting confused trying to keep up with the rationalizations.

You never heard that from ME! In fact, I said ALL ALONG that the majority of ALPA and the good work they did was done by the overwhelming work of the committee "voluteers", just like now. ALPA wasn't perfect and neither is USAPA. What I DID say is that, UNLIKE ALPA, under USAPA YOU the US AIrways Pilot will have US Airways pilots controlling our political interests, UNLIKE at ALPA where the "pilots" were NOT US Airways pilots.

The line pilots have made what happen? Delaying a contract two years with no end in sight?

EXACTLY! I don't know...THIRD BASE!

The BPR are line pilots? At ALPA all of the leadership were line pilots. You just said that usapa is staffed with the same line pilots. Man your logic is running in circles. Think about the last vote for EVP. 900 some “line” pilots voted to keep the EVP, less than 900 and some voted to eliminate. So I guess being a “line” pilot does not mean that we all vote the same.

Read above...ALPA leadership was O-T-H-E-R airline's pilots. Their interests was and has always been to throw the weakest under the bus and hope for the best.

So back to the question how does the BPR KNOW what the line pilots want? They know what they want, they know what some of the line pilots want. How do they know what all the line pilots want?

That's pretty obvious, now isn't it.

Furloughed, I am cut to the quick by your wit. NOT! Think what you want or underestimate at your own peril. The ninth and the LOA 93 grievance is going to be disappointing to many on the east.

Peril??? What, peril???

Let me ask you one question??? Who are going to sue if the union is gone??? Yourself?

 

[end_of_alpa]

I apologize for having totally missed your post last night.

None required. Like moths to a "flame" I knew you'd respond!!!

As for the 53 page findings, of course that document would reflect how the judge saw it. As I said, I believe he got it right.

Maybe. So how does that affect the vote???

I don't remember using a poor choice of words. The 53 page document contained conclusions of law, as well as the facts that caused the judge to make those conclusions of law. A brief history of the case is also laid out in there.

Poor conclusions support poor words. As I said before, the appeals court NORMALLY search for things like procedural errors, and in SOME cases, such as this one, A-B-U-S-E of discretion. It still doesn't affect THE VOTE!!

Is the 53 page document all that is in the record on appeal? No. It, along with the submitted briefs of the parties, would however be natural starting points for the judges and clerks of the 9th to start reviewing what the judge saw and why he ruled certain ways. They would then backtrack into the appropriate areas of the record on appeal.

Starting point...certainly. That is where the HISTORY of the case comes into the opinion. But be advised that the judges must have to FOLLOW the PROCEDURAL LAW under RLA and that is what their job is. Regardless, as I said before, the sole purpose of the lawsuit, win or lose, is to destroy USAPA. Remember, the only win as I see it now is for the company (which company, BTW...US Airways, AOL or BOTH!!).

The last I knew I don't need to be employed by US Airways, have a qualifying pilot certificate or have a direct interest in the outcome of this issue in order to engage in comments on this public message board. The administrators of this public message board have made it clear that it is public and posting here is not restricted to only, in this case, pilots of US Airways.

And that IS my point. People on this forum. WHO ARE PILOTS CURRENT ON THE US AIRWAYS LIST, need NOT be remiss in believing those who are NOT CURRENT pilots to support THEIR positions just so they can feel better about themselves. Again...I H-A-V-E A V-O-T-E!! You don't. What you BELIEVE is really immaterial to the conversation because, oh, did I mention YOU HAVE NO VOTE??? The only MATERIAL players in this passion play is ME and 5,200 US Airways pilots. CAN YOU VOTE? Oh, I know, you may KNOW someone that can and you can convince THEM to vote. But they have to pull the lever...NOT YOU!

No. I've said that before. The court can, and has, ordered through its injunction that USAPA include in any contract put out for ratification the provisions of the Nicolau seniority list that was arrived at after agreed upon binding arbitration. The court has never tried to impose any requirement as to how individual pilots choose to vote in any matter submitted to them for ratification. I do note however that USAPA has not submitted a contract to its members for potential ratification. Why?

So remember, NO USAPA, NO CBA. NO LAWSUIT! NO CASE!! NO RICH WEST PILOTS! However, I'll TELL you why, since you havn't been nor are YOU allowed to be in ANY BPR meeting is this, and it has NOTHING to do with conspiracy theory. It has to do with ALL...repeat....ALL of the sections of the CBA being agreed to. The BPR is not holding anything back. There simply is nothing there because the majority of EAST pilots prefer NO UNION rather than a union that tosses union principles away. It's a big task and it won't be completed without the resolve of the OVERWHELMING support of ALL the pilots. It just so happens that the MAJORITY of the pilots won't be pattsies for the minority desires.

END OF STORY. You can pick on Cleary all you want, but he has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!!! The pilot's don't want a CBA with Nicolau. And you can't make us vote for it!!

You see, YOU advocate the short term and want the pilots to "get the money". We advocate "no principle, no unity, no money"

Once again I apologize for having missed your post yesterday, thereby delaying this response.

Please don't patronize me, thank you very much. I know you for who you are!

 

[end_of_alpa]

So USAPA is offering protection in the form of separate operations? Are they not required to offer equal protection to all members, or is USAPA the private club of the former USAirways pilots? And do the pilots get a say in whether or not they want such "protection"?

Yes. That "equal protection" as you call it, is exactly what they are doing now. You are supported under your CBA with the grievance procedure and we are under ours. If you would take the time to ask the West pilots who are working at USAPA filing those grivances they will tell you so. Ask them, I did!!

It's time to force USAPA to act. The pilots need to demand that Cleary be stripped from his presidency for failing his fiduciary duty by continuing to funnel money to Seham without an end in sight. And where is the transparency that USAPA promised? Can anyone provide a link to the 2010 USAPA budget? Just how much are they willing to throw away fighting their own pilots while other more valuable needs are left unfunded? Why don't pilots demand continuous active polling and the consequent actions by the BPR in response to such polling? Don't simply put a little poll widget on the website and think that you are accomplishing anything. Employ Wilson Center or similar polling agencies and contact the pilots rather than relying on them to participate via the website.

Because the MAJORITY of EAST pilots voted for Cleary. That's why. It's not HIS fault that the majority of pilots WON'T support your position!!! Don't shoot the messenger. It's simple. My day at US Airways is the same as your day at AWA. Call in "arbitration" airstrikes all you want. I will not vote for a CBA with the Nicolau award in it. You can't convince me. However, maybe you can convince the majority to see it your way. However, as I said before, we're polarized and the company knows it. Blaming Seham is a "red herring". If and when the majority of you see fit to change the leadership, go ahead. That is your right IF your a member in good standing. Until then, continue blaming on airlineforums.com.

Could it be that the BPR isn't interested in responding to the needs of the pilots? Could it be that they are under the impression that they give the marching orders to the line pilots? Must their hand be forced before they decide to take the job of representing ALL US PILOTS seriously?

If you actually to the time to become a member in good standing you could attend a BPR meeting and find out for yourself. I've been there and I can speak FIRST HAND: you flame bait them because they won't and don't have the time to stoop to this level to ATTACK you! Come to a BPR meeting and address it. They'll listen!

 

[luvn737s]

Yes. That "equal protection" as you call it, is exactly what they are doing now. You are supported under your CBA with the grievance procedure and we are under ours. If you would take the time to ask the West pilots who are working at USAPA filing those grivances they will tell you so. Ask them, I did!!

Evasive. Delaying progress on a joint contract is not equal protection. I think we're both smart enough to know this is not a grievance issue.

Because the MAJORITY of EAST pilots voted for Cleary. That's why. It's not HIS fault that the majority of pilots WON'T support your position!!! Don't shoot the messenger. It's simple. My day at US Airways is the same as your day at AWA. Call in "arbitration" airstrikes all you want. I will not vote for a CBA with the Nicolau award in it. You can't convince me. However, maybe you can convince the majority to see it your way. However, as I said before, we're polarized and the company knows it. Blaming Seham is a "red herring". If and when the majority of you see fit to change the leadership, go ahead. That is your right IF your a member in good standing. Until then, continue blaming on airlineforums.com.

The time for replacing Cleary is now (actually about a year ago). Feel free to vote however you wish, but you do not and cannot speak for the majority of US pilots. A poll (in the form of a vote) is the only way to gauge the sentiment of the pilot group and Cleary refuses to poll them on some of the most important issues (RICO, Addington etc.). When USAPA was nothing more than a hairbrained scheme in the back of a van they had the luxury of adopting a we vs them mentality against their fellow workers. Now there is substantial west participation and USAPA most finally accept that it isn't the private club it once was and Cleary cannot choose sides. He is far more than the messenger, but his message has thus far been disunity in order to cement his influence. And while I refuse to wear the scarlet badge backer that identifies me with such a miserable organization, I am a member in good standing. It is my sincere hope that a representation election will allow me the good pleasure of burning that badge.

If you actually to the time to become a member in good standing you could attend a BPR meeting and find out for yourself. I've been there and I can speak FIRST HAND: you flame bait them because they won't and don't have the time to stoop to this level to ATTACK you! Come to a BPR meeting and address it. They'll listen!

I've heard and seen BPR meetings and it is plain that members are not listened to, but thanks for the invite. They are shouted down and asinine resolutions are ginned up and passed which ignore the issues at hand and pretend to serve the pilots with one "investigation" after another. Move USAPA to be co-located with company HQ and the largest pilot base and maybe I'll swing by for a little shoutfest.

EOA, you need to realize that USAPA cannot continue to abdicate it's responsibility to lead the pilot group. It will be replaced. It's time to replace your 1982 calendar.

 

[cleardirect]

From the very funny movie Stripes.

Psycho: The name's Francis Soyer, but everybody calls me Psycho. Any of you guys call me Francis, and I'll kill you.
Leon: Ooooooh.
Psycho: You just made the list, buddy. And I don't like nobody touching my stuff. So just keep your meat-hooks off. If I catch any of you guys in my stuff, I'll kill you. Also, I don't like nobody touching me. Now, any of you hxxxs touch me, and I'll kill you.
Sergeant Hulka: Lighten up, Francis.

Hey End_Of_ALPA, lighten up.

 

[nic4us]

as I said before, the sole purpose of the lawsuit, win or lose, is to destroy USAPA.


It just so happens that the MAJORITY of the pilots won't be pattsies for the minority desires.

Again, the east does not understand the situation they are in. The purpose of the lawsuit is not to destroy usapa. The purpose of the lawsuit is to own usapa.

It just so happens, the minority is not seeking its desires, it is seeking its lawful rights under the RLA and the US Justice system. It is the majority which sought its desires and wished to inflict them on a minority, without any legal grounds to back them up. That is why the West pilot class will own usapa. Then if you want to destroy it with the majority, go ahead, "make our day".

 

[hp_fa]

Please don't patronize me, thank you very much. I know you for who you are!

Displaying manners = patronization? Whatever....

 

[end_of_alpa]

Displaying manners = patronization? Whatever....

I call it "sucking up". It certainly isn't professional courtesy, of that I'm certain!

 

[no shizel]

The March 24, 25 BPR meeting saw some very disturbing activity involving your PHL council. The PHL and PHX reps were joined at the hip from beginning to end, starting with a private dinner the Tuesday evening before the meeting and continuing throughout with private caucuses at every break.

Of the many agenda items advanced two stood out as being of particular interest to the PHX and PHL reps respectively. The first was a proposed resolution to strengthen the communications policy by introducing penalties for violations. This has been a longstanding sore point for the PHX council and is a constant source of friction between them and the rest of the BPR.

From the very start of the discussion the PHL reps were squarely and somewhat obtusely behind the efforts of the PHX reps to defeat the measure. Despite considerable debate the PHL reps' support for the PHX council was unwavering - pure chance? We think not.

The next agenda item was a proposed change to the flight pay loss policy advanced by the PHL reps. This proposal involved logistical issues that would have far reaching implications and a vigorous debate ensued. Just as the PHL council firmly supported the agenda of the PHX reps now the PHX council returned the favor with their vigorous support for the PHL reps.

The behavior of the representatives of both councils was conspicuous and displayed pure collusion between them. The main function of the BPR is to advance the will of their constituents. What occurred that week was unabashed bartering between PHL and PHX, trading the support of one for the support of the other, and your interests provided the capital to make it happen.

Pick up the phone, call your reps, and ask them just how far they are willing to go with your interests in order to advance their own agenda. Don’t wait, your very livelihood may hang in the balance.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Again, the east does not understand the situation they are in. The purpose of the lawsuit is not to destroy usapa. The purpose of the lawsuit is to own usapa.

It just so happens, the minority is not seeking its desires, it is seeking its lawful rights under the RLA and the US Justice system. It is the majority which sought its desires and wished to inflict them on a minority, without any legal grounds to back them up. That is why the West pilot class will own usapa. Then if you want to destroy it with the majority, go ahead, "make our day".

I have lawful rights as well, under RLA, the US Justice system . And it's called a VOTE. That is something you are suiing for to strip the majority of their vote. As for the "legal grounds", well just have to see, won't we!