US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/11- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[nycbusdriver]

More blather, its becoming automatic from you lately.

I thought we had established who resembled a broken record.

Gotta laugh at the irony of YOU coming up with that response.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Would some one on the West please answer a simple question ? Why should some one with " a few years" be put ahead of some one with "many" years ?

Well at risk of perpetuating this ridiculous argument all one can offer is their take on what this situation is.

First, this was a SENIORITY integration. This was not a DOH/EXPERIENCE/YEARS-OF-SERVICE/AGE integration. Seniority is a strange thing. Ask yourself how a pilot with 16+ years could be on reserve on a narrowbody airplane? With this in mind understand that seniority at airline A may get you a CPT seat on a narrowbody airplane. That same seniority at airline B might only get you a reserve F/O seat on a narrowbody. Clearly "seniority" is not tied to one's length of sevice, age, experience etc. It is simply a placement on your individual airline's pilot list. I could in no way shape or form exercise my "seniority on the east list. However my "seniority" on my list would allow me to exercise my rights at my airline.

Second, this was a merger of two completely separate and unique seniority lists. US AIRWAYS may be the surviving certificate but it certainly is not the purchasing airline either as neither airline "purchased" the other. Also what one group of pilots did in their years before the merger had no direct effect on the other group of pilots. Keep in mind my seniority only lives in my seniority list at my airline. So when it came time to merge the two independent lists of pilots Mr. Nicolau chose many factors from which to make his decision. I will not rehash what specifically as it seems to only incite more bitterness. Nonetheless Nicolau constructed the list in such a way as to respect the seniority that each individual pilot brought with them to this merger. Thus we have a "relative seniority" SLI. Of course this does not include the top 517 positions that were awarded to the east for the widebody flying they brought to this merger. If it had been any other way Nicolau would have succumb to very inequity he hoped to avoid. So while there are pilots who had hoped this merger might make up for some troubled times in their respective career, it would be unfair to consider their plight when the others had no hand in creating such. Understanding this the arbiter had to acknowledge the seniority that was brought by each individual group. Failing to do so would effectively strip one group of their seniority and hand it to the other. Take emotion and personal expectations out of the equation and we can clearly see why and how Nicolau arrived at his decision.

 

[nycbusdriver]

That's not how a federal judge and a 9 member jury saw it. You're best hope would be that the judges on the 9th make their decisions based on emotion rather than the rule of law. Given the court's track record - there is an ever so slim possibility they will ignore the law.

The jury did NOT decide on ripeness. They decided their limited piurview based strictly on the limited evidence the desert judge decided to let them see/hear. In Wake's courtroom, the "whole" truth suffered immeasurably. Thank God for the appeals process.

 

[hp_fa]

Ripeness is not a question of fact, but rather a question of law. That particular issue would not have been put before a jury in any American jurisdiction.

 

[nic4us]

In Wake's courtroom, the "whole" truth suffered immeasurably.

As evidenced by Sully's testimony, Seeham's arguements and the lack of Bradford's participation.

But, the good guys still prevailed.

 

[EastUS]

(Harry Callahan @ Mar 17 2010, 08:22 AM)
Would some one on the West please answer a simple question ? Why should some one with " a few years" be put ahead of some one with "many" years ?"

Because a respected Arbitrator, agreed to by both sides, decided to do it that way.

Translation = Because you think you can get away with it and it suits you just fine to try and do so. That's the true entirety of the west's "Righteous Position", upon which all your self-assigned "honor" and "Integrity" springs forth...at least, iwithin your own tribal chants and possibly even your minds.

Btw; "expectaions" in life exist only within the minds of imaginative young children and incurable village idiots....or just the hopelessly naieve.

 

[CallawayGolf]

The jury did NOT decide on ripeness. They decided their limited piurview based strictly on the limited evidence the desert judge decided to let them see/hear.

I stand corrected. Could you be so kind as to explain exactly what the jury's findings were? You might want to throw in how long it took them to come to an agreement on those findings while you're at it?

In Wake's courtroom, the "whole" truth suffered immeasurably. Thank God for the appeals process.

Is that a reference to Seham's spurious attempt to justify USAPA's shameful conduct. The "whole truth" was notably absent on defense side of the aisle - I'll certainly agree with you on that.

 

[EastUS]

(Harry Callahan @ Mar 17 2010, 09:22 AM)
Would some one on the West please answer a simple question ? Why should some one with " a few years" be put ahead of some one with "many" years ?

Your question is not "simple".

"Your question is not "simple". = That's pure BS, just total and unmitigated BS. The only concern within which said qustion can be spun as other than simple is that of easilly exposing the flagrant selfishness and opportunism of those that would seek to make such an inquiry into something somehow magically mysterious and complex.

 

[cactusboy53]

Would some one on the West please answer a simple question ? Why should some one with " a few years" be put ahead of some one with "many" years ?

Because both parties could not come to an agreement regarding the seniority of the pilot group via the Merger Committees and mediation conducted with G. Nicolau. Failing that all parties agreed to commence with arbitration which is final and binding. Arbitrator Nicolau (along with two pilot neutrals) delivered an seniority list to president of the union. The ALPA merger policy was followed to the "t". Both parties agreed to this process. DONE.

Fair? To some no, to others perhaps.

 

[Freebird]

Because both parties could not come to an agreement regarding the seniority of the pilot group via the Merger Committees and mediation conducted with G. Nicolau. Failing that all parties agreed to commence with arbitration which is final and binding. Arbitrator Nicolau (along with two pilot neutrals) delivered an seniority list to president of the union. The ALPA merger policy was followed to the "t". Both parties agreed to this process. DONE.

Fair? To some no, to others perhaps.

For the East,

Why should someone who is Furloughed come back ahead of any active pilot?

Especially since BOTH groups' ELECTED LEADERSHIP AGREED to place ALL FURLOUGHED PILOTS BEHIND ALL ACTIVE PILOTS?

You know the history, you know where you failed to live up to your agreements. Your group is costing ALL USAirways pilots money. Period. Seham Thanks You.

 

[EastUS]

But, the good guys still prevailed.

Ah yes..Sigh..."the good guys" What more truly "noble" a quest could any true kingiht errant be embarked upon than to strive to place s person with all of 3 month's worked ahead of some doubtless "bad" people with only say, 16+ years worked?
How could anyone ever esteem it not the highest purpose for human existence than to seek out "seniority" for people who were often literally grade-shcool children when those they seek to become "senior" to began professional flying careers? What higher demonstration of pure "goodness" or more ultimate expression of the very finest within the human spirit could ever be found anywhere?

 

[nic4us]

Fair? To some no, to others perhaps.

Cactusboy,

Whether one agrees with the result or not, the product of arbitration in this case is fair to all who had a stake in it.

By that I mean to say, it was reached by an impartial, unbiased panel. It is reasonable, rational and the result of a simple objective analysis of the facts which led to its necessity.

That is why I bolded fair in my reply to Harry Callahan.

Had I constructed the list, it would have been done differently. If the usapians get their way, it would be done differently. But, in either of those hypotheticals, it does not change the fact that the Nicolau List is fair to all involved, regardless of personal veiws, Wake's verdict or the impending 9th's opinion.

I will save my dissertation of what is unfair for discussions of the upcoming damages trial and why the east are going to pay large.

 

[john john]

Binding Arbitration produced a relative seniority list that integrated the two lists based on a pilot's relative position on the pre-merger list. A pilot who was in the 25th percentile before the merger was essentially in the 25th percentile on the new integrated list. The merger produced more pilots, more planes, more routes but the same relative position when combined. This is true for both sides. So in this example if you had a higher seniority number than 75% of your peers before the integration, you effectively were still ahead of 75% of your peers after the integration. DOH is irrelevant in a relative seniority integration; what matters is where someone is on the list relative to their peers.

Why didn’t this work for the flight attendants, mechanics dispatchers, fleet service, passenger service, engineers

 

[Freebird]

Why didn’t this work for the flight attendants, mechanics dispatchers, fleet service, passenger service, engineers

Because their contracts with AFA, IAM, etc., dictate Date of Hire in mergers. ALPA does NOT. It has a merger policy, that has been in place for years, that describes the steps to take to achieve a list. And if those steps fail to produce, the decision goes to a Mediator, mutually chosen by both parties. If the Mediator is unable to reach an agreement between the two parties, the decision is sent to an Arbitrator. In this case, Nicolau served as both. The Arbitrator then renders his/her decision based on a FINAL and BINDING principle. IOW, his decision stands, move on.

USAPA is trying to fool the system and impose a Date of Hire, thus reneging on their agreements, because it didnt go the way they demanded. Kinda like a 4 year old. However, theyre losing in every venue they try and their moral compass is in need of repair.

 

[EastUS]

Why didn’t this work for the flight attendants, mechanics dispatchers, fleet service, passenger service, engineers

Hmmm...I can only assume because those are all simply more "ignorant" groups of people...none of whom possess the true richness of spirit, intellect and overall enlightenment found only within the west pilots.