US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/1- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[OTTER574]

YOU GET WHAT YOU NEGOTIATE! IF WE WORKED FOR FREE OUR CASM WOULD'NT BE LOWERED BY EVEN 1 PENNY ! USELESS PURCHASED REALESTATE, FUEL HEDGING (lack of it) and not to mention those other useless derivatives, it is TIME TO HOLD BAD management accountable and not act like an endless piggybank for a drug addict! SWA DOES!

Unified pilot groups get good contracts, pure and simple, period. I don't care if it's alpa, usapa or any other union.

Ask yourself, how many airlines have operated like us airways and gotten away with it this long and why?

 

[Pi brat]

A few months ago we had a few of us had a discussion on the affects of the merger on CASM. I just finished watching the latest PHX crew news session where a captain brought up how his angry F/O was disturbed by the merger raising AWA's costs. Any of you web board financial geniuses buying Kirby's answer?

 

[nic4us]

True story. In CLT there was this bartender that figured out a way to get paid twice for the tab.

usapa should hire him to be their CBA negotiator

 

[BoeingBoy]

Throughout all of human history...it's rarely been the case that anyone so intent upon undermining, disparaging and generally striving to sabotage one's fellows has actually been proven out as a true beacon of light and faith....

Though I don't think any change will come from it, it is refreshing to see you engaging in some self-examination of your motives and attitude...

Jim

 

[OTTER574]

A few months ago we had a few of us had a discussion on the affects of the merger on CASM. I just finished watching the latest PHX crew news session where a captain brought up how his angry F/O was disturbed by the merger raising AWA's costs. Any of you web board financial geniuses buying Kirby's answer?

Not a genius and in fact far from it. I saw a comparison a few months back between us airways and southwest cost's line by line. The numbers that stuck out in my mind was that us airways was cheaper than southwest in every catagory except 2. Aircraft/equipment lease costs and rj flying. And I know swa doesn't fly rj's but still it was a big difference.

Guess who helped fund the merger between awa and us airways? Leasing companies and us airways rj flying such as republic and air wisconsin.

 

[EastUS]

Though I don't think any change will come from it, it is refreshing to see you engaging in some self-examination of your motives and attitude...

Jim

English translation of your last = "Though I don't think..ummm...I got nuthin', so it's smarmy time again"...?

 

[BoeingBoy]

A few months ago we had a few of us had a discussion on the affects of the merger on CASM. I just finished watching the latest PHX crew news session where a captain brought up how his angry F/O was disturbed by the merger raising AWA's costs. Any of you web board financial geniuses buying Kirby's answer?

He is right as far as he went with it (which was barely scratching the surface) - if US flew...oh, say DL's route network with US' contracts and fleet, US' CASM would be different than that reported. Like always, though, the devil is in the details and the details are all the other differences between carriers other than stage length. Stage length is the easiest factor to correct for - not that it's easy but just the easiest - which is why the analyst' adjust only for it.

US obviously couldn't fly DL's network with US' fleet because 1- US doesn't have enough airplanes, and 2- US doesn't have the right mix of airplanes even if you doubled (or whatever multiple it would take) the number of each type plane. Other factors are the fleet mix as mentioned - a higher percentage of big airplanes generally flying long legs means lower CASM if everything else is equal. Fuel prices aren't equal for all airlines - where it's bought and hedging (either successfully or unsucessfully) play a part. Facilities cost aren't equal across all airports. The efficiency of the operation isn't equal. Productivity, influenced by the operation and contracts, isn't equal. The list goes on and on, and that's before even mentioning the low cost carriers with their operational advantages.

Finally, something that usually doesn't show up (at least for all carriers) is system CASM - the CASM for all branded operations. US has the largest percentage of ASM's flown by express carriers (although once Republic has their Frontier/Republic/Midwest operations sorted out they may take the lead). That means that US has a higher percentage of higher cost Express ASM's than any other carrier. Let's face it - mainline CASM doesn't mean a thing for a GSO-PHL flight on a CRJ or E-170/175.

Of course, Kirby (and the analysts) know all this but it doesn't get mentioned except a few places - the MIT Airline data project and Airline Financials, both of which take the raw BTS and SEC filings data and boil it down to a simple format.

A perfect example of how a valid fact can distort reality is to compare WN and US. Listening to Kirby one would think that all that's needed is to adjust for stage length. However, WN had the shortest stage length in the industry, so that adjustment would increase the difference between US and WN's CASM. It's all those other factors that allow WN to pay what they do and still have the lowest stage length adjusted CASM in the industry. Of course, it one mentioned that to Kirby he's quickly say that you can't compare US to WN since the operational models are so different, thus admitting that there's a lot more to CASM differences than stage length.

Jim

 

[N924PS]

Unified pilot groups get good contracts, pure and simple, period. I don't care if it's alpa, usapa or any other union.

Exactly!

And also why the company, once again, has the pilots right where they want them.

As long as the battle between the East and West continues, the company will continue to take advantage of the situation. Saving over $120M a year in pilot payroll while the pilots are duking it out in court suits them just fine.

Look for more of the same regardless of the outcome at the 9th Court of Appeals.

 

[EastUS]

Though I don't think any change will come from it, it is refreshing to see you engaging in some self-examination of your motives and attitude...

Jim

You "might" properly consider doing the same, if your above post represents the fullest extent of what you were able to glean from: "I've ALWAYS believed in DOH as the only rational basis for establishing seniority. It mattered not to me whether it harmed or helped myself or anyone else. If you find yourself unable to believe that any others can hold convictions of equal or superior strength to your own....Well..that's on you, and affords you ZERO rights to assume that said beliefs are the result of "changing standards and principles " or somehow magically, morally inferior views to your own as to what's "fair".

For me...any and all that were at Piedmont or US before me should have and did go ahead of me on the list. That made complete and perfect sense to my beliefs. On the other hand; That you personally would clearly have had no problems whatsoever with having less years worked, but yet becoming instantly "senior" to any from USAir or PSA, based solely upon wherever you momentarily sat at Piedmont....and would presumably have gleefully done so at the drop of a hat...well..what can I really say..?"

The bottom line looks to be that you've absolutely NOTHING to offer by way of even any slight semblance of a reasoned response...?

 

[OTTER574]

Exactly!

And also why the company, once again, has the pilots right where they want them.

As long as the battle between the East and West continues, the company will continue to take advantage of the situation. Saving over $120M a year in pilot payroll while the pilots are duking it out in court suits them just fine.

Look for more of the same regardless of the outcome at the 9th Court of Appeals.

You take a look at what the company states in crew news compared to what they say under oath, wall street or to the nmb. The company and it's reps need to stop the whipsawing of this pilot group along with some usapa folks. Basically parker needs to grow a pair.

With the company/east alpa/usapa seperate ops mantra and how this company is ran, you would think it should be so easy to get a decent contract within weeks. Think about it, it's their achilles heel.

Seems some in power are happy with the status quo.

 

[cubfan]

The kirby proposal is DOA.

Atsb loan constraint pilot wages on the west and loa 93 pilot wages on the east have subsidized this so called merger going on YEARS now. I'm tired of hearing some, especially out west..."well parker said he can only afford to pay so much." or "as long as the flights are on time, that's all that matters even with (underpaid) unhappy pilots." Statement's from parker, kirby or jerry glass, you take your pick.

You dare to compare wages with some of our competing airlines, let's say 12 year captain rates domestic single aisle? Lets pick 5. ALK, SWA, JBLU, CAL, DAL

If parker squanders this low wage gift and free ride, it's not the pilots fault at us airways.

It's refreshing to shift gears a bit and have discussions about contract proposals and such instead of NIC and the 9th. I hope it continues so we can get some idea on what is important to us all. The NIC and 9th will take care of it self.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

It's refreshing to shift gears a bit and have discussions about contract proposals and such instead of NIC and the 9th. I hope it continues so we can get some idea on what is important to us all. The NIC and 9th will take care of it self.

I believe it is alot easier to split this company up and sell it the way it is , heck look how far apart they keep the f/a's, than a merged group! It's comin just a matter of time! MM! Those FORCE rumblings are getting closer together!

 

[Crzipilot]

A little off topic, but here's something just about every contract should have. The explanation was this was put in, via a watered down version of past practice......should have something similar here.....

Article 13.k.9
It shall be a violation of this Agreement if the Association
engages in any action to encourage or suggest to its members
that they not pick up open time or decline junior available
assignments. This language shall not be applicable during a
time of furlough or furlough announcement. Further, it shall be
a violation of this Agreement if any crewmember(s) takes any
action, individually or collectively, to discourage or interfere
with other crewmembers who desire to pick up open time or
accept junior available assignments. Nothing in the preceding
sentence shall limit an individual crewmember’s ability to voice
personal opinions.


The IPA had a long history of a very open policy of open-time and JA bans whenever they wanted, even during contract negotiations, and up to the early '00s, it was perfectly legal. Along came a judge in the 11th Circuit Court and ruled against the Delta pilots when they stopped picking up open time, and suddenly the law changed. When it came time for UPS/IPA to negotiate a new contract, UPS management said that the IPA's long-standing position that they could tell pilots not to pick up open time was now illegal, and the company wouldn't recognize it. As a compromise, the IPA agreed to the above provision in their contract, which limited the times that they could call for an open-time ban to just when pilots are furloughed. It was a significant change in their past practice, but it was the best they could do for a compromise.

 

[HPDriver]

US Airways Pilots Support DOT Conditions on
US Airways-Delta Waiver Request But Ask DOJ to Investigate Slot Swap Transaction



CHARLOTTE, N.C. – March 10, 2010 – The US Airline Pilots Association (USAPA), representing the pilots of US Airways, today announced support for the conditions imposed by the Department of Transportation (DOT) on US Airways’ proposed slot swap with Delta Airlines. USAPA also reaffirms its request to the Department of Justice for a full investigation to expose likely anti-competitive results of the deal. The deal would give Delta 51% of New York-LaGuardia Airport departures and US Airways 58% of the Reagan Washington National Airport departures.

The two airlines submitted a joint waiver request from the prohibition on purchasing slots at New York LaGuardia Airport. The waiver would allow US Airways to transfer 125 pairs of slots to Delta, plus a lease/option of an additional 15 pairs of slots at LaGuardia Airport. The waiver also allows Delta to transfer 43 pairs of slots to US Airways at Reagan Washington National Airport. A pair of slots is one takeoff and one landing.

The DOT announced in February that it was proposing conditional divestitures, “because of the unusual size of the transaction, which dramatically enhances the respective market position of Delta at LaGuardia and US Airways at Reagan National Airport, the reduced competitive incentives that the carriers would have at the respective airports, and the potential for use of the transferred slot interests in an anticompetitive manner.â€

“Historically this kind of market domination results in higher airfares, reduced frequency of flights and less choice and generally has an adverse effect on the traveling public, particularly in medium- and small-sized markets,†said USAPA President Mike Cleary. “This also would have a huge impact on jobs, and in this case US Airways employees with decades of experience would be negatively impacted. Although we support the DOT’s decision to require slot divestitures, we want to make it clear that waivers to laws that minimize the intent of the law should not be granted. That is why we are asking the Department of Justice to investigate the transaction.â€

Headquartered in Charlotte, N.C., the US Airline Pilots Association (USAPA) represents more than 5,000 US Airways pilots in five domiciles across the United States. Visit the USAPA Web site at www.USAirlinePilots.org.

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You know, just when I thought you couldn't put out a more ridiculous press release, USAPA comes out with this gem.

At least this USAPA nightmare is coming to a close very soon.

 

[HPDriver]

I'll give Cleary one thing, he's censors east and west equally.

The fact that his EVP elimination didn't go through bothered him quite a bit. But the fact that he couldn't even get a simple majority has REALLY pissed him off.

Guess he wants to make sure that info doesn't get spread around.