US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/14- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[OTTER574]

I just flew with one of the latest hires, who was furloughed and is back. Now in danger again. This "so we are moving away from the Nic" is your wish, and one that will be unfulfilled.These guys are more cognizant of the potential for upward movement in a few years with status quo. This guy was 39, flying with a 58 yr. old.Why would he EVER give in to a contract that allows a cascade that destroys his future? You still don't get it. You need that new contract, and I would imagine living in Vegas or Phoenix, I can understand why. There was a really good article in the USA Today about how those areas are totally underwater with regards to real estate. Forget the boat on the Jersey coast being underwater. If anything is underwater-it is the PHX LAS real estate market. At least the East has the PBGC. It has to be pretty scary being so underwater with your house in an area that they can just keep building out into oblivion the minute any demand resurrects itself.Talk about capping prices!
Back to the NIC- and especially a potential contract. There is no way this management is ever going to offer anything even close to LOA 84 rates. No way. So if the East gets a lucky break and takes them back in a win, then it is absolutely over for the West, done deal. You guys did nothing for pay parity even before we headed to arbitration. It was clear what was coming. Every other ALPA carrier had the sense to get parity and unite the two merging groups so the real battle could somehow be fought in the endgame, after the integration dust settled. You guys made a HUGE tactical error, and divided the group even harder going into the arbitration. You had a nice little laugh on that one. I predict it will be your downfall... You can go on and on about your history, your background, your age, what you think you deserve, your honor and on and on. The fact is this- your management ended up in control, and took the name of the East. They knew that Airways was a piece of crap, and we knew it too. It was crap, but it was a cash cow for every entity feeding off it for all those years. GE capital, Airbus, Gate Gourmet, and on and on. Nobody was going to evict a tenant that was providing some decent cash flow. They also knew that Southwest was literally eating your pants off in a leisure market that was about to collapse into itself due to the financial debacle. You guys now feed off the East for revenue, yours is miniscule. Now this thing has to be moved on. You all made the chance for integration IMPOSSIBLE. This fact will kill you in the near game as you can't get a decent contract with us, and you have kept the two sides of the airline beautifully divided for a sell job for management to pull off.There is no airline out there that presents such a beautiful opportunity for a hatchet job for some M&A group. There is NO overlap of labor groups! Now, which side do you think is the prize in the split job? The one flying into a gambling mecca in the middle of a recession and also into a market where the real estate has crashed like no other- or the one with the lock on trans-Atlantic and the Northeast with all the business and banking and still decent real estate? You can pass on your opinions about that one all you want. You know the answer. That is why you can't kill off USAirways- the cash flow is still there, through thick and thin. Look at all the regionals who feed off the East - Wisconsin and Republic. Do you really think they are going to let their blood supply go away? Either way, this thing provides a real dilemma for those with long term interests in it. There is no way the groups will ever get put together. If most of us were going to be around here for more than a few more years, we would all be pretty concerned going forward, especially if we were on the side with so little to offer......

maybe you should try flying to PIT...LGA...BOS...BWI and all those high price markets in FLORIDA.

 

[Flippin43]

Thank you making the west point about the C&R. You are so eager to close PHX where are the protections for the west pilots if PHX is shrunk or closed. GONE and it is back to straight DOH. Thanks no thanks.

And then you advance on the backs of the East F/Os ........see how easiliy your own argument gets flipped on ya!! Don't bring a slingshot to an intellectual gunfight!!

VNIIMN

Advancing on the backs of F/O's, Isn't this exactly what your intending for us.

 

[Flippin43]

How is theMDA law suit going to be a win for the east pilots and change the Nicolau award?



Fraud! Deceit!

Glass's testimony that MDA was always Mainline.

The old union has got a major problem with this issue above.

Guess what will launch the Nicolau into oblivion! Fraud or Deceit

The MDA boys and girls want full disclosure.

Hate

Hate,

Better check your notes, they only want MONEY. Thats right, that is all they have asked for. If they get it that is all they, and you (maybe you) will have. The 3 month time frame to challenge Nicolau is past.

F

 

[cubfan]

Are you now claiming that if the Nic had been a straight relative merge, we wouldn't be in litigation?


F

Don't think so, 14yr year might have had 400 or so below them, 2000 hire would have been merged closer with pilots with closer LOS. People wouldn't have been happy, but your top would have been better off. Doesn't really matter now though. My point was the west was hard headed in some ways also.

 

[exB717Flyer]

ExB717, not talking about Mr. Nic, I'm talking about the west MEC. They had hard fast feelings/ideas, and were unwilling to budge from the start. The same as our DOH idea. Not good then, not good now...

Right, but what I'm wondering is why you think the West MEC should've conceded anything just because the East really, really hated the arbitration result. This conflict was begun by the East so I don't think it's realistic to think the West can or will end it.

.Happy Holidays to you and your family.

Merry ChrisKwaanzaKah to you.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

You give more credit than credit due friend. If I had the power to close PHX, I would have the power to increase it, or maintain it. I would at least maintain the West. This constant closing is not a good financial move.more so in light of a future transaction where a divided house is an easy house to transact.I absolutely hope the West gets transacted away, and in light of what has happened, will grease the tracks to make it happen in any way possible.So in response to "shrunk or closed", the desired answer is TRANSACTED. Transacted by your transactional management led by Parker. I merely made the point of where the strengths and weaknesses of the airline exist, and you cannot deny the monetary facts there. Management is absolutely playing that card for all it is worth, with help from labor. Who is advancing on the backs of East F/O's more so than West pilots? I absolutely counsel them to NEVER to vote for a Nic contract, as it is the end of their future. The entire airline goes on their backs in that case. Believe me, they know more than you or I what a Nic contract holds for them- a small pay raise perhaps but even less when you cap off all movement up. The East F/O is smart enough to forgo a small immediate raise in lieu of NEVER seeing group 1.They see how many old guys we have, your boys obviously do not, or they would have a little patience in their scramble to be 330 boy captains......

ooo ooo, don't throw me in the briar patch!

What part of "binding" does the east STILL not get?

 

[AWE Dog]

Is there such thing as a bad arbitration?

 

[cubfan]

Right, but what I'm wondering is why you think the West MEC should've conceded anything just because the East really, really hated the arbitration result. This conflict was begun by the East so I don't think it's realistic to think the West can or will end it.Merry ChrisKwaanzaKah to you.

exB717,

You may be missing my point, I talking now not then. I never thought the west was ever going to change anything. Like I said before, they didn't have to. I simply said if anyone wants this mess to move forward, both sides will have to give alittle. If both sides don't bend we go no where, and maybe we still capture some attrition because no new contract anytime soon. If loa 84 rates become reality the east doesn't have to move. If they don't, no movement because MGT. won't, can't offer anything better, so the east just sits, captures attrition and waits till they can or do. If are pay goes back to loa 84 rates, you may have a better chance of at least getting Wake to look at stall tactics. If not, best of luck with that one. Most on the east realize the NIC is most likely it, and most realize it's going to take a YES vote to impliment, not anything anyone is willing to do anytime soon if current offers don't change much. That is if were even still around to see this thru.

 

[Hate2fly]

ooo ooo, don't throw me in the briar patch!

What part of "binding" does the east STILL not get?

Yo HP,

What part of the Transition Agreement do you not understand? Parker and Kirby understand that you will never see the Nicolau award. Freund tried to tell you and you wouldn't listen.

Hate

 

[Hate2fly]

Is there such thing as a bad arbitration?

Dog,

I can't wait to hear the west spin this question! You should also ask is there such a thing as a bad Federal Judge?

Hate

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Is there such thing as a bad arbitration?

Funny you should ask. I recently read that even credit card companies are stopping the use of arbitration because it is viewed as unfair.

http://www.businessweek.com/investing/wall...rbitration.html

 

[OTTER574]

Dog,

I can't wait to hear the west spin this question! You should also ask is there such a thing as a bad Federal Judge?

Hate

And a scheme by lee seham, steve bradford, mike cleary and randy mowery will get these usapa gents in JAIL.....

 

[exB717Flyer]

I simply said if anyone wants this mess to move forward, both sides will have to give alittle.

And as I said before, there is no more West entity to give anything. You're going to have to explain better what you think the West should be doing right now.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Funny you should ask. I recently read that even credit card companies are stopping the use of arbitration because it is viewed as unfair.

http://www.businessweek.com/investing/wall...rbitration.html

Funny - if you actually read the article you would understand that they are abandoning arbitration because there was a conflict of interest between the arbitrators, the arbitration oversight board and the banks. The AG stepped in to protect consumers who might possibly have been damaged by an illegal use of the arbitration process. Furthermore, consumers rarely read the fine print in their credit card agreements so they were unaware that they had subjected themselves to the arbitration process.

None of that applies to the pilot arbitration for the integration of the seniority lists. Both pilot groups were well aware that binding arbitration was the final stage in the process and both sides got an equal number of strikes before Nicolau was selected by attrition. Would you like to claim, with evidence, that the arbitrator had a conflict of interest or had pre-determined bias towards one of the parties? If not, then this is just a red herring designed to make you feel better about not honoring your lawfully executed agreements.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Is there such thing as a bad arbitration?

Not really, since arbitration is just the name of a process that's invoked with the agreement of both sides.

But perhaps you meant to ask where there's such a thing as a bad arbitration result? If that's the case, the answer is that it depends on one's opinion - the same result could be sen as bad by one person but as good by another. But that's opinion - not fact.

I'm reasonably confident that an arbitration result that restored the East pilots to LOA 84 pay would be seen as good by the pilots, but bad by the company.

Jim