US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/14- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[jetjok1]

Everytime I wander onto this thread it never ceases to amaze me how a group of people who are skilled enough to fly and land large planes can't see the forest for the trees.

Everyday there is no contract Doug Parker wins. The money he saves, plus what you spend fighting is gone forever. Oh I know it's the principle of the thing and what's fair. NEWS FLASH, It's business and no where in modern business is there room for fair. You get what you negotiate plain and simple. If you're litigating instead of negotiating then both pilot groups have already lost.

Every day that you fail to unite against the common enemy is a day you lose money out of your pocket. Principle is a wonderful thing to stand on. However it's not nearly as helpful as cold hard cash when it comes to wife #3's alimony or that really nice boat you have in a marina on Long Beach Island now is it?

Money talks and Bullshite walks and so far after how many years all you have is Bullshite. How's that working for you?

Well, I've been married for 35 years to the same wife #1 only and I don't own a boat. Oh, and I own land in the heart of the Napa Valley. To answer your question, it's working out just fine. Any other questions?

 

[Barrister]

Cubfan.

Certainly you can see where this could be viewed as trying to improve the 14 yr guys career at the expense of someone elses. Had AAA stayed in business, even the most thick of individuals have to by now see that was not going to happen, but for this discussion, if it had, where would that 14 year guy have gone ??? To the bottom.

Are you now claiming that if the Nic had been a straight relative merge, we wouldn't be in litigation?


Well well, been gone awhile but I can see nothing has changed. No suprise there. You Westies have no clue how many moving parts/motivations there are here, and guess what ? it has nothing to do with you. It has to do with "the system" For example: by the time NIC made his findings over 500 of the put on the bottom 15-17 year guys had been recalled. Fair and equitable?? Why had they been recalled, was it increased revenue and flying out West....ah NO....was it your West "attrition" ....ah ...NO.....was it because the still flying pilots and the furloghees had given up BILLIONS....with a B to keep this POS flying.....ah YES. You guys forget and I will remind you......NIC hurt the East in ways you haven't even considerd yet. Remember me calling PHX an economic waste land a few months ago. The evidence is mounting.......do you not think DP will cut PHX HUGH when he can, maybe totally. Then you won't have choice about bidding CLT/PHL.

A word about JS and BB. Stockholm syndrome all the way. Nuff said. The senior guys will NOT sell out this time. Most over 60 guys are drawing PBGC, military, etc. I know plenty of guts who are close to 200K (I am one of them) and I doubt they will sell out the 20 yr. F/O for another 10-20. Some will.... MOST will NOT.

Last thought.......Cleary knows how this pilot group feels.....do you believe otherwise??.

Barrister

 

[cleardirect]

Cubfan.

Certainly you can see where this could be viewed as trying to improve the 14 yr guys career at the expense of someone elses. Had AAA stayed in business, even the most thick of individuals have to by now see that was not going to happen, but for this discussion, if it had, where would that 14 year guy have gone ??? To the bottom.

Are you now claiming that if the Nic had been a straight relative merge, we wouldn't be in litigation?


Well well, been gone awhile but I can see nothing has changed. No suprise there. You Westies have no clue how many moving parts/motivations there are here, and guess what ? it has nothing to do with you. It has to do with "the system" For example: by the time NIC made his findings over 500 of the put on the bottom 15-17 year guys had been recalled. Fair and equitable?? Why had they been recalled, was it increased revenue and flying out West....ah NO....was it your West "attrition" ....ah ...NO.....was it because the still flying pilots and the furloghees had given up BILLIONS....with a B to keep this POS flying.....ah YES. You guys forget and I will remind you......NIC hurt the East in ways you haven't even considerd yet. Remember me calling PHX an economic waste land a few months ago. The evidence is mounting.......do you not think DP will cut PHX HUGH when he can, maybe totally. Then you won't have choice about bidding CLT/PHL.

A word about JS and BB. Stockholm syndrome all the way. Nuff said. The senior guys will NOT sell out this time. Most over 60 guys are drawing PBGC, military, etc. I know plenty of guts who are close to 200K (I am one of them) and I doubt they will sell out the 20 yr. F/O for another 10-20. Some will.... MOST will NOT.

Last thought.......Cleary knows how this pilot group feels.....do you believe otherwise??.

Barrister

It was 300 not 500 that were recalled after the PID. Some attrition but some because the aircraft headed for the desert did not go, but mostly because AAA did not close the doors.

Thank you making the west point about the C&R. You are so eager to close PHX where are the protections for the west pilots if PHX is shrunk or closed. GONE and it is back to straight DOH. Thanks no thanks.

If you would like to compare city economics look at CLT, I think about 12% unemployment. That is going to leave a mark.

But rehash Nicolau all day long it is over and done. It is not going away. The time to challenge that has long passed. the ninth will rule soon on usapa's DFR not on the fairness of Nicolau.

I really hope Cleary knows how the entire pilot group feels. Because when the ninth rules and the LOA 93 arbitration happens he is going to find out just how this entire pilot group feels about him and usapa.

 

[Black Swan]

T/A Transition Agreement

T/A Tentative Agreement

A tentative agreement is released to be voted on. If it passes it becomes a contract. So he is correct using T/A. As long as the east pilots have been doing this I would think you would know that.

50% +1 is all that is needed to pass. So now we are starting to move away from the "I will never vote for a contract that has the Nic"

I just flew with one of the latest hires, who was furloughed and is back. Now in danger again. This "so we are moving away from the Nic" is your wish, and one that will be unfulfilled.These guys are more cognizant of the potential for upward movement in a few years with status quo. This guy was 39, flying with a 58 yr. old.Why would he EVER give in to a contract that allows a cascade that destroys his future? You still don't get it. You need that new contract, and I would imagine living in Vegas or Phoenix, I can understand why. There was a really good article in the USA Today about how those areas are totally underwater with regards to real estate. Forget the boat on the Jersey coast being underwater. If anything is underwater-it is the PHX LAS real estate market. At least the East has the PBGC. It has to be pretty scary being so underwater with your house in an area that they can just keep building out into oblivion the minute any demand resurrects itself.Talk about capping prices!
Back to the NIC- and especially a potential contract. There is no way this management is ever going to offer anything even close to LOA 84 rates. No way. So if the East gets a lucky break and takes them back in a win, then it is absolutely over for the West, done deal. You guys did nothing for pay parity even before we headed to arbitration. It was clear what was coming. Every other ALPA carrier had the sense to get parity and unite the two merging groups so the real battle could somehow be fought in the endgame, after the integration dust settled. You guys made a HUGE tactical error, and divided the group even harder going into the arbitration. You had a nice little laugh on that one. I predict it will be your downfall... You can go on and on about your history, your background, your age, what you think you deserve, your honor and on and on. The fact is this- your management ended up in control, and took the name of the East. They knew that Airways was a piece of crap, and we knew it too. It was crap, but it was a cash cow for every entity feeding off it for all those years. GE capital, Airbus, Gate Gourmet, and on and on. Nobody was going to evict a tenant that was providing some decent cash flow. They also knew that Southwest was literally eating your pants off in a leisure market that was about to collapse into itself due to the financial debacle. You guys now feed off the East for revenue, yours is miniscule. Now this thing has to be moved on. You all made the chance for integration IMPOSSIBLE. This fact will kill you in the near game as you can't get a decent contract with us, and you have kept the two sides of the airline beautifully divided for a sell job for management to pull off.There is no airline out there that presents such a beautiful opportunity for a hatchet job for some M&A group. There is NO overlap of labor groups! Now, which side do you think is the prize in the split job? The one flying into a gambling mecca in the middle of a recession and also into a market where the real estate has crashed like no other- or the one with the lock on trans-Atlantic and the Northeast with all the business and banking and still decent real estate? You can pass on your opinions about that one all you want. You know the answer. That is why you can't kill off USAirways- the cash flow is still there, through thick and thin. Look at all the regionals who feed off the East - Wisconsin and Republic. Do you really think they are going to let their blood supply go away? Either way, this thing provides a real dilemma for those with long term interests in it. There is no way the groups will ever get put together. If most of us were going to be around here for more than a few more years, we would all be pretty concerned going forward, especially if we were on the side with so little to offer......

 

[Barrister]

Thank you making the west point about the C&R. You are so eager to close PHX where are the protections for the west pilots if PHX is shrunk or closed. GONE and it is back to straight DOH. Thanks no thanks.

And then you advance on the backs of the East F/Os ........see how easiliy your own argument gets flipped on ya!! Don't bring a slingshot to an intellectual gunfight!!

VNIIMN

 

[Megasnoop]

(Black Swan @ Dec 15 2009, 11:20 AM)
Keep laughing Metroyet. It is ALL OF US ON THE LINE. Everytime you see an East jet, picture that guy doing just fine and ready to keep you out of the action.There is no way any of us will vote you a new contract. Learn to live with what you have. It is all you are going to ever get.

"any of us" might be kind of strong, but your right, after 8 years of downgrades, pay reductions, furloughs, we've learned to adjust. There's no chomping at the bit for the Kirby, especially with the NIC being our current, court enforced status quo. I make no concession on that. Neither does the BPR. Right now the NIC is our Section 22 position. When it comes up again at the table, unless overturned, the NAC will have to go with NIC. The 9th, declaring NIC not ripe? What a potential mess that "half-win" is. $3M down the tubes. Most likely still in Wake's court for the future. You got to pay your current attorneys out of your own pockets before they or anyone would take your case again. All in all, a ripenss "half-win" hurts you a lot more than it hurts us, but it does clog the works.

You are absolutely incorrect.
IF USAPA loses in finality at the 9th Circuit or in the unlikely SCOTUS appeal, there is no rational reason not to vote for an acceptable contract containing the Nic. It is the law, was the law and will be the law going forward.
And going forward is what this pilot group needs to do sooner than later.
Bitter individuals such as yourself will simply have to move on or move out if you can't function under a new and better contract containing NIC Section 22.
Many who gave USAPA the benefit of the doubt in order to assuage the East's disenfranchised have had enough LOA 93. If there is no way to beat the Nic you better get pay and work rules you can enjoy for what remains of your career.
The fact is, many in the East jets are not "doing fine" and are dipping into savings/retirement accounts to make the monthly bills.
I predict that should a reasonable T/A be offered to the pilots, it will pass.

PS, BS is right. Rational reason still out there is LOA84/93 arbitration. It would take a combo of arbitration loss and at the 9th to change rank and file. Nic is/was/will be the law only if Addington not overruled. We'll know soon enough. Defining all your opponents as bitter, uninformed, etc, turns debate into name-calling, attacks personalities, not issues. Why do you continue that way? If we'd take out all these snorky stabs at each other, maybe we could have good debate. These are interesting times, worth debate, labor V management, not labor V labor.

You are correct.
Even Rowe understood this and publicly stated so. He knew a TA with Nic would pass given the right amount of money was offered.
Once the appeal is shot down, things will quickly come to a head out east.

Flying with Eric, he made it clear, his "right amount" was closer to LOA84, not Kirby. NIC with LOA84 rates might pass. But we could get those rates without needing a contract. One thing is sure, we're years away from even getting Kirby rates doing Section 6 NMB. Despite our BPR attempts, letters to the NMB, the company isn't budging off there 1-2 meetings/month. As the NAC/BPR looks closer into Kirby, it becomes closer to revenue neutral for Parker. The LOA 84 arbitration may be over by the time the 9th rules, but I doubt if we'll hear the results for 6-8 months after. That's been Bloch's pattern. Quickly wont start until the earliest after both are resolved. Maybe not even then.

Posted Today, 08:53 AM by Barrister: The senior guys will NOT sell out this time. Most over 60 guys are drawing PBGC, military, etc. I know plenty of guts who are close to 200K (I am one of them) and I doubt they will sell out the 20 yr. F/O for another 10-20. Some will.... MOST will NOT.

Last thought.......Cleary knows how this pilot group feels.....do you believe otherwise??.

Great points, Barrister. I see that attitude more every time I fly. When you fly with the same guys for 25 years, same routes, same layovers, you see the bond that will not let the senior pilots throw those junior under the bus. The West doesn't understand that or the value of getting an additional 5 years to work.

 

[Black Swan]

Thank you making the west point about the C&R. You are so eager to close PHX where are the protections for the west pilots if PHX is shrunk or closed. GONE and it is back to straight DOH. Thanks no thanks.

And then you advance on the backs of the East F/Os ........see how easiliy your own argument gets flipped on ya!! Don't bring a slingshot to an intellectual gunfight!!

VNIIMN

You give more credit than credit due friend. If I had the power to close PHX, I would have the power to increase it, or maintain it. I would at least maintain the West. This constant closing is not a good financial move.more so in light of a future transaction where a divided house is an easy house to transact.I absolutely hope the West gets transacted away, and in light of what has happened, will grease the tracks to make it happen in any way possible.So in response to "shrunk or closed", the desired answer is TRANSACTED. Transacted by your transactional management led by Parker. I merely made the point of where the strengths and weaknesses of the airline exist, and you cannot deny the monetary facts there. Management is absolutely playing that card for all it is worth, with help from labor. Who is advancing on the backs of East F/O's more so than West pilots? I absolutely counsel them to NEVER to vote for a Nic contract, as it is the end of their future. The entire airline goes on their backs in that case. Believe me, they know more than you or I what a Nic contract holds for them- a small pay raise perhaps but even less when you cap off all movement up. The East F/O is smart enough to forgo a small immediate raise in lieu of NEVER seeing group 1.They see how many old guys we have, your boys obviously do not, or they would have a little patience in their scramble to be 330 boy captains......

 

[Hate2fly]

How is theMDA law suit going to be a win for the east pilots and change the Nicolau award?
[/quote]


Fraud! Deceit!

Glass's testimony that MDA was always Mainline.

The old union has got a major problem with this issue above.

Guess what will launch the Nicolau into oblivion! Fraud or Deceit

The MDA boys and girls want full disclosure.

Hate

 

[CallawayGolf]

(Black Swan @ Dec 15 2009, 11:20 AM)
Keep laughing Metroyet. It is ALL OF US ON THE LINE. Everytime you see an East jet, picture that guy doing just fine and ready to keep you out of the action.There is no way any of us will vote you a new contract. Learn to live with what you have. It is all you are going to ever get.

"any of us" might be kind of strong, but your right, after 8 years of downgrades, pay reductions, furloughs, we've learned to adjust. There's no chomping at the bit for the Kirby, especially with the NIC being our current, court enforced status quo. I make no concession on that. Neither does the BPR. Right now the NIC is our Section 22 position. When it comes up again at the table, unless overturned, the NAC will have to go with NIC. The 9th, declaring NIC not ripe? What a potential mess that "half-win" is. $3M down the tubes. Most likely still in Wake's court for the future. You got to pay your current attorneys out of your own pockets before they or anyone would take your case again. All in all, a ripenss "half-win" hurts you a lot more than it hurts us, but it does clog the works.



PS, BS is right. Rational reason still out there is LOA84/93 arbitration. It would take a combo of arbitration loss and at the 9th to change rank and file. Nic is/was/will be the law only if Addington not overruled. We'll know soon enough. Defining all your opponents as bitter, uninformed, etc, turns debate into name-calling, attacks personalities, not issues. Why do you continue that way? If we'd take out all these snorky stabs at each other, maybe we could have good debate. These are interesting times, worth debate, labor V management, not labor V labor.




Flying with Eric, he made it clear, his "right amount" was closer to LOA84, not Kirby. NIC with LOA84 rates might pass. But we could get those rates without needing a contract. One thing is sure, we're years away from even getting Kirby rates doing Section 6 NMB. Despite our BPR attempts, letters to the NMB, the company isn't budging off there 1-2 meetings/month. As the NAC/BPR looks closer into Kirby, it becomes closer to revenue neutral for Parker. The LOA 84 arbitration may be over by the time the 9th rules, but I doubt if we'll hear the results for 6-8 months after. That's been Bloch's pattern. Quickly wont start until the earliest after both are resolved. Maybe not even then.




Great points, Barrister. I see that attitude more every time I fly. When you fly with the same guys for 25 years, same routes, same layovers, you see the bond that will not let the senior pilots throw those junior under the bus. The West doesn't understand that or the value of getting an additional 5 years to work.

Sounds like you’re taking a realistic view of the situation. Let me summarize
• NIC is here to stay regardless of the 9th ruling
• USAPA will negotiate with NIC in Section 22 going forward
• USAPA will negotiate for LOA84 pay rates or better knowing full well that the Company will never accept such an astronomical increase in wages
• Snapbacks are a dead issue (less than 1% chance of success) but USAPA will push the issue any way to keep the less zealous rank and file from becoming too discontent with their union
• All the average east pilot really wants is to delay the NIC. Pay improvements only come via the NIC and a joint CBA and that is the one thing they just cannot accept. Better to continue in bottom of the industry pay than to consider the unacceptable they say. “East will not trade pay for the NIC under any circumstancesâ€￾ is the mantra.

It does appear to be an accurate view of the east situation. The fly in the ointment will be proving to judge Wake that USAPA is in fact negotiating in good faith rather than just employing another delay tactic. As it has been said many times, only a membership vote on new CBA will truly prove how much resolve remains on the east. Will USAPA ever let that happen? Will judge Wake let them negotiate indefinitely without coming to a TA with the Company?

So far USAPA has proven that they can push the boundaries using short-term legal loopholes to create the two year plus delay. Are there more delay tactics USAPA can exploit or have they just about run their course? How long will the Company remain neutral to internal union squabbles that affect operations and the livelihoods of 27,000 other employees?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Guess what will launch the Nicolau into oblivion! Fraud or Deceit

You do know that there's a time limit on making that argument before a judge, don't you? That time limit expired quite a while back. You guys were too busy keeping a joint contract proposal from being agreed to (a waste since the "cost neutral" company stance pretty much guaranteed that anyway, getting ALPA to strong arm the West into giving you what you wanted, and then kicking ALPA off the property that you missed your opportunity to use "Fraud or Deceit" to vacate the Nic award. That's why the "inconvenient truth" of what the MDA plaintiffs are asking for is important - not to "launch the Nicolau into oblivion" but cold, hard cash.

Jim

 

[AWE Dog]

Nicolau, JS, Just more evidence that good decision making is a fleeing thing after age 60.

 

[Megasnoop]

Sounds like you’re taking a realistic view of the situation. Let me summarize
• NIC is here to stay regardless of the 9th ruling
• USAPA will negotiate with NIC in Section 22 going forward
• USAPA will negotiate for LOA84 pay rates or better knowing full well that the Company will never accept such an astronomical increase in wages
• Snapbacks are a dead issue (less than 1% chance of success) but USAPA will push the issue any way to keep the less zealous rank and file from becoming too discontent with their union
• All the average east pilot really wants is to delay the NIC. Pay improvements only come via the NIC and a joint CBA and that is the one thing they just cannot accept. Better to continue in bottom of the industry pay than to consider the unacceptable they say. “East will not trade pay for the NIC under any circumstancesâ€￾ is the mantra.

It does appear to be an accurate view of the east situation. The fly in the ointment will be proving to judge Wake that USAPA is in fact negotiating in good faith rather than just employing another delay tactic. As it has been said many times, only a membership vote on new CBA will truly prove how much resolve remains on the east. Will USAPA ever let that happen? Will judge Wake let them negotiate indefinitely without coming to a TA with the Company?

So far USAPA has proven that they can push the boundaries using short-term legal loopholes to create the two year plus delay. Are there more delay tactics USAPA can exploit or have they just about run their course? How long will the Company remain neutral to internal union squabbles that affect operations and the livelihoods of 27,000 other employees?

If your summarizing me, you summarize bad. NIC may survive if Addington overturn is on ripenss alone. If its overturned otherwise, good luck. Snapbacks are only a dead issue for those who want the arbitration to lose. You can't make such a statement before the arbitration. If the company loses and then refuses to pay, then USAPA be in court. Isn't that what you did when USAPA delivered Section 22 with DOH? The difference will be we go to court with an actual ripe loss. You have no idea what the average east pilot wants. With a west loss in the 9th, Wake becomes less important or maybe even irrelevant. If you lose on ripenss, you'll have to start all over again. You'll have to pay your attorneys before they or anyone will take the case on retrial. The cockroach in the ointment is MDA. Hate2fly's got it right. If MDA group wins, then what Nicolau was looking at was a junk list. "Create a 2-year-plus-delay?" Where are you coming up with that nonsense? USAPA's only been around 18 months. The DFR went through in record time. Im speculating. You are convinced how things will go, based on how you want them to go.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Nicolau, JS, Just more evidence that good decision making is a fleeing thing after age 60.

They better lower the retirement age back to 60 then...

Jim

 

[CallawayGolf]

If your summarizing me, you summarize bad. NIC may survive if Addington overturn is on ripenss alone. If its overturned otherwise, good luck. Snapbacks are only a dead issue for those who want the arbitration to lose. You can't make such a statement before the arbitration. If the company loses and then refuses to pay, then USAPA be in court. Isn't that what you did when USAPA delivered Section 22 with DOH? The difference will be we go to court with an actual ripe loss. You have no idea what the average east pilot wants. With a west loss in the 9th, Wake becomes less important or maybe even irrelevant. If you lose on ripenss, you'll have to start all over again. You'll have to pay your attorneys before they or anyone will take the case on retrial. The cockroach in the ointment is MDA. Hate2fly's got it right. If MDA group wins, then what Nicolau was looking at was a junk list. "Create a 2-year-plus-delay?" Where are you coming up with that nonsense? USAPA's only been around 18 months. The DFR went through in record time. Im speculating. You are convinced how things will go, based on how you want them to go.

“There's no chomping at the bit for the Kirby, especially with the NIC being our current, court enforced status quo.â€
“Right now the NIC is our Section 22 position. When it comes up again at the table, unless overturned, the NAC will have to go with NIC.â€
“The 9th, declaring NIC not ripe? What a potential mess that "half-win" is.â€
“Most likely still in Wake's court for the future.â€
“Nic is/was/will be the law only if Addington not overruled.â€
“NIC with LOA84 rates might pass.â€
“Despite our BPR attempts, letters to the NMB, the company isn't budging off there 1-2 meetings/month. As the NAC/BPR looks closer into Kirby, it becomes closer to revenue neutral for Parker.â€
“…you see the bond that will not let the senior pilots throw those junior under the bus. The West doesn't understand that or the value of getting an additional 5 years to work.â€

Sorry – I thought the above statements indicated you had become a realist concerning the situation. My bad. I’ll let you return to your self-created dream world where the Company, the courts, and those pesky west pilots bend over backwards and give your everything you ever wanted and more.

 

[CallawayGolf]

"Create a 2-year-plus-delay?" Where are you coming up with that nonsense? USAPA's only been around 18 months.

As long as you're nit-picking on points, then you're wrong too. USAPA was elected in April of 2008 (21 months not 18). When did USAPA first organize and file to become a union? When did they first begin to campaign for US pilots? That's how long they have been working to delay the implementation of the NIC.