US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/14- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[ableoneable]

What color is YOUR glass house? Better check YOUR grammar before you proclaim to be the grammar police!

Ah the resident liar returns.

Fourth, your continuing to call a well respected arbitrator senile based only on your own unrealistic expectations is unpersuasive.

This is correct.

"Forth, you're continuing to call......."

would be incorrect.

If you are going to jump on the grammar bandwagon at least try to be correct.

(Oldie runs to the mods in 3 - 2 - 1.....)

 

[ableoneable]

If keeping your current contract for the next 5+ years is a good thing for the west pilots, then yes, it will be a good thing.

Excepting another merger I am sure we will be keeping our current contract for the next five years. (Barring the liquidation of USAirways.)

Given the decisions being made by the BPR vis a vie the next contract (no pbs, no short term disability etc.) I will vote no on the next TA even if it includes the arbitrated seniority award.

Of course should LOA 84 payrates go into effect most if not all widebody flying will probably shift to west pilots.

Management has already demonstrated that they will shift as much flying as possible to the lower paid group. Let the whipsawing continue.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

This arbitration is not binding! As Megasnoop stated earlier, Nic only sticks as long as their is a union. Period. Take a look at my name- there is youre answer.

The east agreed to a fair and balanced integration- the senile old man gave everything to the west. Please excuse us if you are so offended about us sticking up for our rights. Move along now!

So, let me get this straight, first the east made an agreement under binding arbitration, when they didn't get their pony, they formed a new union to get out of its agreement, the court shot them down, now they want to decertify to again weenie out of their agreement?

I am all for decertification (not too keen on unions), but not for that reason.

You make an agreement, you stick to it, its what honest men do.

How many years can you all go on with your fingers in your ears and humming? East made the agreement, live up to it, or don't go whining about management sticking to a contract. Cry me a river about your precious rights, your side made an agreement and you reneged, the only rights you guys want are the rights that you agree with. And, can the hyperbole about "senile" Do you have a doctor's statement about the man? If not, then you are guilty of defamation of character.

Tell you what, decertify all you want, just keep the Nic, because your side agreed to abide by it.

 

[East Hole]

Ah, but before? How about nearly 10% of East pilots in 2006/2007. Add that to the new flying by the East post-merger and the East has done very well compared to before the merger. Well enough to recall the furloughees to not just offset attrition but do some of that new flying, in fact.

Meanwhile the West has had to eat their attrition plus furlough, much to the amusement - even joy - of some on the East.

Jim

I am doing so well Jim. Actually so well that I am about in the exact position I was in at the end of 1989. That is before I get put behind someone hired in the summer of 2004 who taps into the attrition I was looking forward to.

 

[HPDriver]

...says ALPA, the CBA for both East and West, presented Nicolau with a bogus list.

Just wondering how your MC allowed a bad list to be presented.

Didn't your MC put the list together in the first place? And how did the MEC allow this bad list to get by them?

 

[OTTER574]

Just wondering how your MC allowed a bad list to be presented.

Didn't your MC put the list together in the first place? And how did the MEC allow this bad list to get by them?

hpdriver exactly, west pilots should not be held hostage for the east pilots incompetence.


East alpa and east usapa are holding some answers. When the east majority CLEANS HOUSE...we have a union.

Until then, we on the west have a clear DFR against.....

Same words I've spoken to bradford and cleary.

 

[Megasnoop]

Rick,
Thanks for trying to explain...........my kids homework keeps getting in the way!
Hate

I'm not sure it does any good, Jer. Connecting the obvious dots isn't their strong suit. Sarah says "hi."

Just wondering how your MC allowed a bad list to be presented. Didn't your MC put the list together in the first place? And how did the MEC allow this bad list to get by them?

As an objector at the time, it wasn't MY MC or MEC. The point is, the only list that the East MC had to present was the one ALPA certified and gave them. We all know that the MEC couldn't do anything to the MC at that point except fire them, although I heard the MEC agreed with the list. At the time ALPA was fighting other conflicts, including the MDA suit. Try explaining why a PHL-LEC officer could be on furlough (and flying at MDA) and at the same time be an elected PHL LEC officer, paying PHL dues. It's more complicated than that. ALPA's worried. The downside to chasing dues $$. It looks like they gave the East MC a bad list, excluding those they were collecting dues from, classified as active east members. ALPA weirded out the whole process. Again, the Nic could be collateral damage due to ALPA mistakes, but it's still damage. Only a settlement protects the certified list from being proven wrong. Nicolau used a list he assumed was accurate.

 

[ableoneable]

ALPA's worried.

uh huh.

 

[Flippin43]

I'm not sure it does any good, Jer. Connecting the obvious dots isn't their strong suit. Sarah says "hi."



As an objector at the time, it wasn't MY MC or MEC. The point is, the only list that the East MC had to present was the one ALPA certified and gave them. We all know that the MEC couldn't do anything to the MC at that point except fire them, although I heard the MEC agreed with the list. At the time ALPA was fighting other conflicts, including the MDA suit. Try explaining why a PHL-LEC officer could be on furlough (and flying at MDA) and at the same time be an elected PHL LEC officer, paying PHL dues. It's more complicated than that. ALPA's worried. The downside to chasing dues $$. It looks like they gave the East MC a bad list, excluding those they were collecting dues from, classified as active east members. ALPA weirded out the whole process. Again, the Nic could be collateral damage due to ALPA mistakes, but it's still damage. Only a settlement protects the certified list from being proven wrong. Nicolau used a list he assumed was accurate.

Megasnoop,

The whole thing is confusing, that is clear.

But maybe you could verify this. Your east Alpa "member" that was an LEC officer. Could he bid for and hold a Mainline AAA seat in any Mainline Jet, without first being "Recalled" to the Mainline.

It's really a simple question, a Yes or No will be enough.

If you read the Arbitration transcripts, this was talked about. (oh yeah, east representatives that you elected NOT ALPA NATIONAL, didn't want you to read them) and my understanding is the that it is this "restriction, or distinction if you will" that Nicolau saw that made these pilots the same as the pilots on furlough who had not involved themselve in MDA. Your LEC officer no doubt had guys Senior to him on the Mainline line list on Furlough during this time. So would you then say that they, furloughed mainline pilots senior to MDA pilots were "active as well" ??


Besides, if you think that the MDA business has an effect on the Nicolau list. Why was the Nicolau list not challenged outright on this basis in May 07.


Flip

 

[Flippin43]

This arbitration is not binding! As Megasnoop stated earlier, Nic only sticks as long as their is a union. Period. Take a look at my name- there is youre answer.

The east agreed to a fair and balanced integration- the senile old man gave everything to the west. Please excuse us if you are so offended about us sticking up for our rights. Move along now!

J,

So your willing to put an end to your "creation" based on some totally unfounded theory as this.

I think your going to have to reconcile the part where the Company is a party to an agreement to use the Nicolau list. If there is no union, they can do what they want, right. Certainly you see that the safest course for them legaly is to follow thru with their commitment. Not to mention that is what they have indicated so far.

F

 

[end_of_USAPA]

As an objector at the time, it wasn't MY MC or MEC. The point is, the only list that the East MC had to present was the one ALPA certified and gave them. We all know that the MEC couldn't do anything to the MC at that point except fire them, although I heard the MEC agreed with the list. At the time ALPA was fighting other conflicts, including the MDA suit. Try explaining why a PHL-LEC officer could be on furlough (and flying at MDA) and at the same time be an elected PHL LEC officer, paying PHL dues. It's more complicated than that. ALPA's worried. The downside to chasing dues $$. It looks like they gave the East MC a bad list, excluding those they were collecting dues from, classified as active east members. ALPA weirded out the whole process. Again, the Nic could be collateral damage due to ALPA mistakes, but it's still damage. Only a settlement protects the certified list from being proven wrong. Nicolau used a list he assumed was accurate.

Pretty weak response.

But I'll bottom line what your trying to say:

The only ones responsible for the list that was presented are the east pilots that were in leadership positions.

They scrubbed the list and they OK'd the list. Period.

Its not really that complicated.

I know ALPA has always been an easy scapegoat for your missteps, and this is just another one added to the list.

The process was largely left to each MEC to get the best deal via negotiates and, failing that, to go to arbitration.

All the while the list moved through that whole process unchallenged.

 

[end_of_USAPA]

This arbitration is not binding! As Megasnoop stated earlier, Nic only sticks as long as their is a union. Period. Take a look at my name- there is youre answer.

The east agreed to a fair and balanced integration- the senile old man gave everything to the west. Please excuse us if you are so offended about us sticking up for our rights. Move along now!

Should USAPA cease to exist, the company will take the easiest route to integrating the pilot list - via the Nic.

Its on Parker's desk, its been stated publicly that its the one they recognize, and they've also stated that to the NMB.

USAPA going away is just going to bring Nic on that much faster. And without a union to protect you, any BS stunt you try to pull will get you terminated for cause with no recourse.

Now, how about you move along as well.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Pretty weak response.

But I'll bottom line what your trying to say:

The only ones responsible for the list that was presented are the east pilots that were in leadership positions.

They scrubbed the list and they OK'd the list. Period.

Its not really that complicated.

I know ALPA has always been an easy scapegoat for your missteps, and this is just another one added to the list.

The process was largely left to each MEC to get the best deal via negotiates and, failing that, to go to arbitration.

All the while the list moved through that whole process unchallenged.

Not true and you know it. Your east guys were representing all the East pilots, to say otherwise is a farce. You have no argument on this one. Its laughable. If the decision came out your way, would you still be saying the same thing? Somehow, I doubt that the righteous indignation would still be there. LOL

Your side, the West, and the company signed up for binding arbitration, and agreed to abide by what the decision was. Your side reneged, why can't you understand that? East signed on the bottom line and agreed to abide. End of story, stamping your feet and saying NO won't change that.

Or, does making an agreement only apply to other people?

 

[end_of_USAPA]

ALPA's worried.

I just spoke with an individual in legal at ALPA a little over a week ago and I can tell you that is for from the truth.

The MDA thing is a nuisance that's going to die soon.

The next conference is set for 1/15. Let's see if the plaintiffs can keep to the schedule this time.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Megasnoop,

The whole thing is confusing, that is clear.

It is, but that's the fault of the East MEC and and the company, not some all powerful "ALPA" pulling strings from behind the curtain.

As negotiated, MDA was to be a stand alone wholly-owned Express carrier flying anything over 50 seats (that limit changed with each of several LOA's). It would be staffed fy pilots in this order - furloughed mainline, CEL (wholly-owned) pilots, off the street.

The company started MDA without it's own certificate, using the mainline certificate instead. It was still a separate corporate division incorporated in DE.

The company merged MDA with mainline - the separate corporate division ceased to exist.

During all of this, the East MEC insisted that MDA was separate from mainline and the company continued to treat MDA as a completely separate airline from mainline. It was ALPA National that called the MDA pilots "recalled to mainline" - thus the dues, LEC position, etc.

The East MEC continued their stance that MDA was not mainline becasue of the MDA grievance over MDA change of control, which started when the E170's were sold to Republic - being urged to pursue the grievance by a number of MDA pilots. You can't have a change of control for something that doesn't exist, but that's the course the East and MDA pilots wanted (being after MDA was merged with mainline, Glass was able to testify as he did at that arbitration).

Even after the loss of that grievance, the East MEC continued to insist that MDA was separate from mainline (remember that "MDA" was in operation until well into 2005 when the last E170 was transferred to Republic). I guess that is was to keep from admitting what a mess they had allowed to develop.

Now, we get to Megasnoop's "faulty" list. Contrary to what he stated, the certified list was presented at the start of the seniority integration process. It was the list that was used throughout East/West negotiations. That list was certified while the East MEC was still insisting that MDA was not mainline, so guess what - the list showed the MDA pilots as being furloughed. Of course, once that certified list was presented as the "complete and accurate" list for negotiations, a new list couldn't just surface tor the arbitration - the same list was used.

Jim