US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/14- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[Flippin43]

You're right, nobody should say it. By the same token, no Easties should brag about the East being the profitable side of the operation.

Amen !!

 

[cleardirect]

What if BOTH sides had yielded to a more common ground? Well put it this way - we would no longer need to pad the hell out of our flight times for OTP, we wouldn't have to.

What if, without the help of a geriatric arbitrator, a case of single malt scotch and a locked hotel meeting room were substituted? No one from EITHER SIDE leaves until the matter is SETTLED SATISFACTORILY TO BOTH SIDES.......not crammed down one side or another expeditiously. BUT SETTLED SATISFACTORILY TO BOTH SIDES.

Do you think that can be accomplished? I am betting a hell of a lot a lot faster than you think.

But "We" can't do that - That would be "too simple", "too Old School". Remember Acom's Razor? The simplest solution tends to be the correct one. NOW there is a concept - I call it K.I.S.S. That is also what "we" can all tell Parker,Glass, Hemenway, and Kirby and all their little Kool Aid droids in PHX to do to a certain anatomical region of all of "our" collective posteriors once we resolve this matter amicably.

But No "WE" all would much rather sit around and give our fellow colleagues the "skunk eye" as we pass by one another, and continue to spew the 24/7 hubris on the internet and in the courtroom... at great personal expense and the peril of our profession.

So who in the end is ultimately the winner? The guy with no tie- no clue and a Diet Dr. Pepper? Hope it was worth it guys. Doug sure thinks so.

BOTH side need to step up and resolve this matter NOW. And no matter the intensity of the rhetoric, both side are capable of compromise.
One thing is for sure, neither East nor West are never going to get to their desired destination on this current heading.

It doesn't matter what a judge in PHX says, the Union(s), the Attorneys, the 9th Circuit , SCOTUS, or the guys just like myself that waste ENTIRELY TOO MUCH of their life reading the BS on this board. "We" all could be out doing something else more enjoyable and enjoying our lives and possibly our job.

Sooner or later "we" are going to have to come to a common ground or that is where US Airways (not just pilots) will remain permanently. Maybe this time we can get it right, Let's hope so.

Happy Holidays to ALL

So two and half year later, NOW you guys want to sit down and be reasonable. After arbitration, after a DFR law suit and after a federal injunction NOW you think is the time to be reasonable. That time has past.

Where was the reasonableness from the east back when we were supposed to negotiate an integration? All we heard during the N/M/A was DOH/LOS the east deserves this and that, DOH gold standard ect. Anyone that looked at this realized that DOH was not in any way reasonable or fair and would not have satisfied the west in any way.

But NOW after it is locked in granite NOW the east is willing to accept something that is satisfactory to the east. Well gentlemen that would NOT ever have been DOH/LOS so what would you have been willing to accept and find satisfactory if it was not DOH/LOS?

Why is that NOW acceptable when before it was not?

This was nothing “crammed downâ€￾ on anyone. Both sides agreed to the process both sides knew what merger integration meant. When the arbitrator told you flat our that you were not getting DOH and gave you a chance to change your position but you refused. How is that a cram down it was not a surprise and you had a chance. BTW the east was the side with all of the merger experience remember. We were told sit back the east has this, the east knows how this works. Looks like the east does not know how this works, still.

I agree that we all spend too much time doing this. But it is a full time job trying to educate east pilots on the facts and reality of our situation. Ideas like changing unions changes the responsibility or that getting rid of the union will get rid of the Nicolau list or that snap backs are just around the corner. Are there no deep thinkers on the east? Or is it just radical fringe that posts?
BTW it does matters what the federal courts say in this matter. The minority of east pilots can think or say what you want. But the union and the company are legally bound to abide by what the federal courts say.

One more time it has been said before but I will say it again. There is no compromise to be had. When the east pilots forced a single carrier status you took away the west’s ability to change one single period or comma in the Nicolau. Even if we wanted (We don’t) there is no one with the authority to change anything. If you want to go to every pilot individually and negotiate a change give it a try. But the federal injunction prevents the west from changing it. The injunction prevents the company from changing it and most important the federal injunction prevents the union from changing it.

I hope that is clear enough for every one understand. The time for compromise and reasonableness was in 2007. That time has past. NOW the east is going to have to live with the consequences of your actions during N/M/A.

My great fear is that if we are involved in another merger this same thing will happen. The same unreasonable people will be in charge of N/M/A and will once again demand things instead of finding solutions and the arbitrator will again tell the east that making up for something from someone else will not work. But this time the east unreasonableness will effect the west this time. My suggestion. How about if there is a merger this time let the west handle the merger and we get it done in a reasonable time with a reasonable outcome. Next time you guy sit back and watch how it is done. We got it this time.

But I know that will never happen because unreasonable people are running this mess enabled by unreasonable people with unreasonable expectation.

 

[Black Swan]

You're right, nobody should say it. By the same token, no Easties should brag about the East being the profitable side of the operation.

Nobody on the East cares who was profitable or whatever happened in the past. I could care less about where you came from, or how old you are or where you live.We will leave the cockpit when we want to, without your input. This separate ops is great. I am dealing with the pay fine. Remember, we all adjusted long ago. It isn't all about money anyhow. As I said, if we get LOA 84, and I admit it is possible it will not happen, but if it does- this is going to be the most important issue to hit both sides. If it becomes reality, the East will do every thing possible to down every contract that is proposed regardless of what USAPA does. We will just outnumber you and outvote you. We will cascade our reps with demands that will be impossible to ever get, much less ratify. And that is how you will now be suspended in pay like we were. It will take years, and we will make sure it takes years. All legal. Why would the company want a deal? They now have basically gotten you where they had us.Split, one group denied a higher pay rate. The company certainly will not want to bring you to LOA 84 after they were dragged kicking into it by forces outside their control.So we help them by sacrificing some small issues . So this is what happens possibly after you all had your little laughs about doing nothing to help us.Can you possibly understand why we are not going to be remotely interested in combining with you much less share a cockpit? We don't want you, don't need you. What we want is to keep you outside, and let the attrition kick in. Then come the pay raises and career opportunities if we don't get LOA 84 pay. I don't care about your fantasy diatribe, your legal posturing,your reason. Just stay out of our house and go away. We all just want a few more years out of this thing, then it can go away for all intents. Doing my best to maintain the divide.I laugh every time you guys try and reason to get us to let the past be the past, and you think we are cash strapped. Remember, if it all goes away, we have got the PBGC at least. You guys have nothing later on.

 

[nic4us]

Then, why dont the Westies quit saying it? It sounds like a broken record how A&W bought US and US wouldnt be here if it was not for that great little airline out West. Somebody tell me again how much $ was provided by the West? Somewhere around 0.

As I am guilty of this, allow me to offer some insight. Somewhere around 0 is completely incorrect. The West brought enough to the table to get the AWA stockholders something to the tune of 38% of the new company. The original deal had the West at over 50% of the stock, but so many investors jumped on board with cash, the West contribution became less as a percentage basis.

In any event at this point it is all academic, and I will refrain from using the "aquiring airline" catch phrase in future post, unless I am responding to a "lottery ticket","rookie","less experienced","senile old man","dirt bag outfit", etc,etc,etc.. kind of post. That "lottery ticket" expression is especially worn out.

 

[Metroyet]

If it becomes reality, the East will do every thing possible to down every contract that is proposed regardless of what USAPA does. We will just outnumber you and outvote you. We will cascade our reps with demands that will be impossible to ever get, much less ratify. And that is how you will now be suspended in pay like we were. It will take years, and we will make sure it takes years.

Dear Leader Cleary? Is that you?

Yeah, the DFR wasn't "ripe". I mean really, no harm intended here.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Just stay out of our house and go away.

Funny. Like we had any choice in the matter. Reality is called reality for a reason.

 

[Black Swan]

Dear Leader Cleary? Is that you?

Yeah, the DFR wasn't "ripe". I mean really, no harm intended here.

Keep laughing Metroyet. It is ALL OF US ON THE LINE. Everytime you see an East jet, picture that guy doing just fine and ready to keep you out of the action.There is no way any of us will vote you a new contract. Learn to live with what you have. It is all you are going to ever get.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Easties voted in the current leadership expecting them to fulfill impossible promises.

Just to be clear, their promises were quite obtainable had we just bent over and taken it as they had expected. I suppose the RICO was the hammer that was going to shatter any remnants of resistence. It was a gross miscalculation.

 

[Metroyet]

.There is no way any of us will vote you a new contract.

Sorry. Your side is going to have to prove this one. I suspect there are those on the upper end of the seniority list that are tired of paying for a fools errand. I know, I know, you're positive that every single Eastie sees the situation exactly as you do.

I find this notion to be a little naive. Judge Wake maintains jurisdiction for a reason...you guys aren't any good at hiding your intentions. Seham actually had the ignorant nerve to tell Wake how he was going to evade the injunction if he issued one. Wake closed that door with the single contract provision.

Well played Lee!

 

[aquagreen73s]

Wake closed that door with the single contract provision.

Judge Wake was merely interpreting RLA law on that one. He was ably helped in that regard by the company's attorney Bob Siegel who also happens to be a recognized authority in RLA airline law and that's why his statements to the court during the May hearing were so interesting. That was classic - Granath arguing that the 9th cir case on point didn't mean what Siegel said it did! And Siegel was the attorney who argued and won that case before the 9th! USAPA is the entity which extinguished separate Section 6s. There's only one way and that is through one vote, system wide. 1500 West pilots plus about 1000 on the East is now a majority. Surely there has to be one out of three over there who demand a better contract.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Just to be clear, their promises were quite obtainable had we just bent over and taken it as they had expected. I suppose the RICO was the hammer that was going to shatter any remnants of resistence. It was a gross miscalculation.

That is true. They thought those 18 individuals hanging out there on their own would fold like a cheap suit by taking that coerced false confession. WRONG.

 

[Hate2fly]

Keep laughing Metroyet. It is ALL OF US ON THE LINE. Everytime you see an East jet, picture that guy doing just fine and ready to keep you out of the action.There is no way any of us will vote you a new contract. Learn to live with what you have. It is all you are going to ever get.

Black Swan,

This post is spot on! This is exactly what Freund the west merger attorney was telling them.........all the risk is on the west side! They obviously did not listen to his advice.

Learn to live with what you have. It is all you are going to ever get.

Hate

 

[Hate2fly]

Black Swan,

This post is spot on! This is exactly what Freund the west merger attorney was telling them.........all the risk is on the west side! They obviously did not listen to his advice.

Learn to live with what you have. It is all you are going to ever get.

Hate

Something else for the west to think about!

We all know that there are 3 major items going on at the same time........

The 9th

MDA

LOA 84 pay restoration in the east

In this game the east only has to win one of the three above choices to really prevail. The west on the other hand has to pray that we lose all three.

Even with the slight chance we lose all three we still have our attrition!

As JS would say, my money is on the east!

Hate

 

[cleardirect]

Black Swan,

This post is spot on! This is exactly what Freund the west merger attorney was telling them.........all the risk is on the west side! They obviously did not listen to his advice.

Learn to live with what you have. It is all you are going to ever get.

Hate

Right back at you. LOA 95 snap back is DOA.

If we merge with someone they will be bigger and that delay attitude will not fly. A merged contract with another carrier will include the Nicolau only less because the usapa merger commitee can be counted on the screw it up.

So there you will have it the Nicolau only less with a contract thanks to a majority. Should be no complaints because it is what the majority wanted. Right!

Does anyone believe that AA will welcome DOH? UAL?

 

[nycbusdriver]

So if I walked in your shoes I would abandon all moral constraints and support an organization that was formed for the express purpose of violating a lawfully binding agreement.

Doubtful. Lack of character is not correlated to how far one walks along their path. There is simply no excuse for USAPA negotiating in bad faith. Seham fully admitted it when he asked the 9th to remove the injunction that prevents his client from pushing a DOH list which the company and courts have already declared to be unlawful.

Yada, yada, yada. Talk to the hand....