US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/14- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[BoeingBoy]

I fully agree on your first point.

I also agree, although I think most East pilots would be upset about which seniority method the company chose as providing the most savings...

Jim

 

[end_of_USAPA]

I say we propose a deal with the company to split the difference on a new interim pay rate in a LOA to "help them out in these tough times"

Damn that's a stupid idea.

Can't believe you even wrote that.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Can't believe you even wrote that.

Really? Just one more that's willing to pay almost any price to spite the West. Both sides have some, it just seems more prevalent on the East side.

Jim

 

[aquagreen73s]

Really? Just one more that's willing to pay almost any price to spite the West. Both sides have some, it just seems more prevalent on the East side.

The rule of law will be adhered to and that day is close at hand. Some will persist to be blinded by rage, but in reality if it wasn't this seniority fight then they'd be mad about something else. What's therapeutic for most is that the matter is exactly where it needs to be and soon there will be some sort of finality.

 

[ClueByFour]

What if, without the help of a geriatric arbitrator, a case of single malt scotch and a locked hotel meeting room were substituted? No one from EITHER SIDE leaves until the matter is SETTLED SATISFACTORILY TO BOTH SIDES.......not crammed down one side or another expeditiously. BUT SETTLED SATISFACTORILY TO BOTH SIDES.

Do you think that can be accomplished? I am betting a hell of a lot a lot faster than you think.

Ya'll tried that. The pre-arbitration negotiation. IIRC, East did not move from DOH/LOS. East lost an arbitration, then formed a union to duck the arbitration, and is now trying desperately to get the case pitched on not law grounds but what is essentially procedure.

And you expect the West guys to believe there is any different result in being reasonable?

I'm sure Charlie Brown thinks he's really gonna get the football this time, but it strikes me you need to be a bit more with it to, say, get an ATP. Work the FMS on an Airbus. Any number of tasks to successfully pass a check ride and be a pilot out west.

Keep this in mind--even if this thing is booted on ripeness grounds, the West guys can bring the action again once it is ripe. And since these threads are full of talk about "Resolve," I think you will find that they will, even with the financial ramifications of doing so.

 

[Flippin43]

Doubtful.

Just an educated guess, here, but when the NAC passed USAPAs Section 22 proposal across the table last year, the injunction had not been issued. I believe Section 22 has not been brought to the table since then. The company and the NAC agree on their meeting times and what sections will be discussed. If Section 22 has not been placed on the agenda since the injunction was issued, then it stand to reason that the matter is right where they left it last year. The judge didn't set the NAC/company negotiations agenda, did he?

Now, if Section 22 comes up on the negotiating agenda and the NAC does not withdraw its proposal, maybe Wake will get perturbed. Meantime, the NAC has no official channel to withdraw its Section 22 proposal which can only be done at the table.

Certainly you realize the absurdess of this post...................


Since when has usapa bothered with an "agenda"


Your suggesting that usapa is telling a Federal Judge "we'll get to it, when we get to it"

Good Luck with that.

Flip

 

[Flippin43]

Now that is the smartest thing that I have read on here in a long while. I am thankful as well, regardless of what I felt at the time - they did do alright because it can always get worse.
One only needs to look around. HAS anyone actually looked up from their Blackberry or Computer Screen long enough to see the absolute joke of an operation we are running?

The people benefiting from ALL this EAST/WEST non sense, are the ONES that that have been playing both sides like a Stradivarius. "We" are just too stupid to realize it - we are too busy fighting one another. 5 years into this train wreck and both East and West have one thing in common: contempt for the bone heads running this operation. Who said "WE" couldn't agree.

This whole thing is almost like the Allegheny County debacle and pulling down PIT. Allegheny County and US Airways basically got themselves into the mess they find themselves because neither side was willing to compromise. So guess what both sides get screwed and someone else profited from the misfortune brought to thousands of employees, customers, and a region because of pig headed stubbornness ON BOTH SIDES. Instead of developing a solution - "they" created a problem that someone will eventually profit on, too bad it wasn't the ones that had a stake in it.

What if BOTH sides had yielded to a more common ground? Well put it this way - we would no longer need to pad the hell out of our flight times for OTP, we wouldn't have to.

What if, without the help of a geriatric arbitrator, a case of single malt scotch and a locked hotel meeting room were substituted? No one from EITHER SIDE leaves until the matter is SETTLED SATISFACTORILY TO BOTH SIDES.......not crammed down one side or another expeditiously. BUT SETTLED SATISFACTORILY TO BOTH SIDES.
Do you think that can be accomplished? I am betting a hell of a lot a lot faster than you think.

But "We" can't do that - That would be "too simple", "too Old School". Remember Acom's Razor? The simplest solution tends to be the correct one. NOW there is a concept - I call it K.I.S.S. That is also what "we" can all tell Parker,Glass, Hemenway, and Kirby and all their little Kool Aid droids in PHX to do to a certain anatomical region of all of "our" collective posteriors once we resolve this matter amicably.

But No "WE" all would much rather sit around and give our fellow colleagues the "skunk eye" as we pass by one another, and continue to spew the 24/7 hubris on the internet and in the courtroom... at great personal expense and the peril of our profession.

So who in the end is ultimately the winner? The guy with no tie- no clue and a Diet Dr. Pepper? Hope it was worth it guys. Doug sure thinks so.

BOTH side need to step up and resolve this matter NOW. And no matter the intensity of the rhetoric, both side are capable of compromise.
One thing is for sure, neither East nor West are never going to get to their desired destination on this current heading.

It doesn't matter what a judge in PHX says, the Union(s), the Attorneys, the 9th Circuit , SCOTUS, or the guys just like myself that waste ENTIRELY TOO MUCH of their life reading the BS on this board. "We" all could be out doing something else more enjoyable and enjoying our lives and possibly our job.

Sooner or later "we" are going to have to come to a common ground or that is where US Airways (not just pilots) will remain permanently. Maybe this time we can get it right, Let's hope so.

Happy Holidays to ALL

This is a really good Idea, it prolly would have worked.


Just curious though, why is it that your leadership (not Alpa National) prevented an Idea such as this from occuring. After you explain that, help us out as to why it should happen now.


Flip

 

[Metroyet]

What if, without the help of a geriatric arbitrator, a case of single malt scotch and a locked hotel meeting room were substituted? No one from EITHER SIDE leaves until the matter is SETTLED SATISFACTORILY TO BOTH SIDES.......not crammed down one side or another expeditiously. BUT SETTLED SATISFACTORILY TO BOTH SIDES.

That train left the station years ago. The voting in of USAPA sealed the litigation fate. Seham has been flat out lying to the Easties this whole time...that fact will become obvious (to even the Eastie) shortly. Besides, the only "satisfactory" solution to the East has been the singular dream of DOH. A non starter. That's it. It's over. Final nail coming soon.

 

[end_of_USAPA]

If LOA 84 comes our way, than that just makes it so much easier

Your snapbacks aren't coming your way.

Why don't you ask TP what she thinks of your chances for getting the arbitrator to rule against the company on that.

 

[Metroyet]

Why don't you ask TP what she thinks of your chances for getting the arbitrator to rule against the company on that.

Get some Crocheting tips as well. Also, ask her if there is EVER an inappropriate time to knit a sweater. Answer...NO.

 

[cubfan]

WOW, alot of emotion lately since the 9th hearings. Alot of new opinions. But what does it really all mean? Not alot in my opinion. If the west prevails, so what changes? The NIC is still there and will be implimented when a new contract comes to be. If the east prevails, guess what, the NIC is still there and will be implimented when a new contract comes to be. I don't feel that any of this ever makes the NIC go away. The west says see you at the damages trial, how much do you think that will be, or how much do you think you will be able to collect. I have seen all sorts of numbers thrown around but no one really knows. I'm not sure how much the union can afford, but that will be their bill. If they can't pay it they go away. I'm not sure you would get much support in an assesment. I've heard, that sec 29 thing. That's not really working out too well now. No union, it may not be USAPA, but it WILL be somebody. Not having a union is about the dumbest course you could take. The company tries to do what ever it wants now, no union would mean they could do it faster and alot more malicious. LOA 84 pay rates, we'll see. If we get them great, if we don't nothing changes. The company hasn't moved much since their openers, which I feel is concessionary at best. Hard for a court to say your not bargaining in good faith. What is good faith, taking the Kirby, accepting 99hrs and putting more on the street, etc.......don't think so. Strike, not going to happen, look around, 15% unemployment if you consider the working poor, half the pilot group willing to cross......please. Glucose had some good points, the only way this group will move forward is if both are able to move alittle. The east may have to accept the NIC, drop all the law suites, etc.....the west may have to allow some fences to allow east to get some of their attrition, split all new int'l flying, etc.... There is a way to put all this behind us, but it will take real leadership. It will take a over haul of the leadership we have now, not saying it's good or bad now, just saying it has to change for the betterment of us all. This may all be a pipe dream, but if both sides are unwilling to eat some crow and get over the blame game....then nothing changes.

 

[Hawkhunter]

It really doesn't matter who came closer to Chap 7. That argument doesn't amount to a hill of beans. One thing we do know is that it didn't happen in either case., and I thank God because none of us would be here today. Kudos to the old US management team for keeping this company alive in the wake of 9/11.

Then, why dont the Westies quit saying it? It sounds like a broken record how A&W bought US and US wouldnt be here if it was not for that great little airline out West. Somebody tell me again how much $ was provided by the West? Somewhere around 0.

 

[exB717Flyer]

The east may have to accept the NIC, drop all the law suites, etc.....the west may have to allow some fences to allow east to get some of their attrition, split all new int'l flying, etc....

Have you forgotten that since the AWA MEC was disbanded there's no longer any West entity to bargain with? It's all USAPA now and its Duty to Fairly Represent. The East thought dumping ALPA would help dump the Nicolau list but instead it cemented it. That being said, you wrote:

There is a way to put all this behind us, but it will take real leadership.

Right you are but that's not all. Easties voted in the current leadership expecting them to fulfill impossible promises. So until the rank-and-file Easties (unlike the chest-thumpers who grace us with their presence here) decide they're ready to move on you can't expect the USAPA leadership to either.

This may all be a pipe dream, but if both sides are unwilling to eat some crow and get over the blame game....then nothing changes.

Since you're sounding so moderate right now I'm curious what you think the West should've done differently. We played by the rules, after all, and we weren't the ones who withdrew from contract negotiations while the company was profitable and ready to deal. I think a compromise might have been possible at Wye River or where ever but not with the gun the Easties were holding to our heads. A demand for concessions is not a negotiation.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Then, why dont the Westies quit saying it?

You're right, nobody should say it. By the same token, no Easties should brag about the East being the profitable side of the operation.

 

[nic4us]

Doubtful.

Just an educated guess, here, but when the NAC passed USAPAs Section 22 proposal across the table last year, the injunction had not been issued. I believe Section 22 has not been brought to the table since then. The company and the NAC agree on their meeting times and what sections will be discussed. If Section 22 has not been placed on the agenda since the injunction was issued, then it stand to reason that the matter is right where they left it last year. The judge didn't set the NAC/company negotiations agenda, did he?

Now, if Section 22 comes up on the negotiating agenda and the NAC does not withdraw its proposal, maybe Wake will get perturbed. Meantime, the NAC has no official channel to withdraw its Section 22 proposal which can only be done at the table.

All true, and a good excuse if it came to that, now explain how as Hemenway said "usapa recently presented a sick leave proposal that would provide east pilots with completely different benefits than the West pilots recieve." does not violate the "negotiate a single collective bargaining agreement for both pilot groups" portion of the injunction.

I believe this is a precursor of usapa's intent to try and circumvent the injunction. Oh, that pesky injunction says "a single collective bargaining agreement" ok we will make one agreement with 2 sets of rules. Sick leave=A for east and B for West. Filling of vacancies again A for east B for West. Pay, two scales A for east B for West. Scheduling line bid for east , PBS for West. Not only a violation of the injunction, but further DFR issues, if this is indeed the thoughts going on over there. And, this is the company, not the West, AOL or AWAPPA, making the accusation.