US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/14- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[Black Swan]

Everytime I wander onto this thread it never ceases to amaze me how a group of people who are skilled enough to fly and land large planes can't see the forest for the trees.

Everyday there is no contract Doug Parker wins. The money he saves, plus what you spend fighting is gone forever. Oh I know it's the principle of the thing and what's fair. NEWS FLASH, It's business and no where in modern business is there room for fair. You get what you negotiate plain and simple. If you're litigating instead of negotiating then both pilot groups have already lost.

Every day that you fail to unite against the common enemy is a day you lose money out of your pocket. Principle is a wonderful thing to stand on. However it's not nearly as helpful as cold hard cash when it comes to wife #3's alimony or that really nice boat you have in a marina on Long Beach Island now is it?

Money talks and Bullshite walks and so far after how many years all you have is Bullshite. How's that working for you?

Yes, and the contract in this case is just like those shiny little butterfly mines the Soviets used to drop in Afghanistan, hoping someone would pick it up. In the East case, we sense a real desperation on the West side to have us take the contract. No thanks, pick up that contract and you get a piece of your life blown away. Maybe a small pay uptick, but forget the Group 1 jets and their pay. Then you get a bunch of kids who were in elementary school when you get hired avalanche on top of you. No thanks. We can live with LOA 93. Lets' see what happens in the new yr. If the East gets the LOA 84 pay, then we take it and coast out with no joint contract thoughts EVER.If we don't, well we do some more day trading, or some side job. You have got to remember, a lot of us are in our upper 50's, and we have made it through already. We are coping, we got the wives back to work, some second jobs. We have SS and PBGC on the horizon. The kids are almost out of college, or are out. All it takes is for me to mow a couple of lawns on a sunny day, and I've got West pay tax free! There is NOTHING but downside in that joint contract. Shiny little Dougie contract sitting in the grass, I think I will just walk around it........

 

[john john]

NEWS FLASH, It's business and no where in modern business is there room for fair. You get what you negotiate plain and simple. If you're litigating instead of negotiating then both pilot groups have already lost.

Employees have to negotiate bargain and litigate in the airlines. That is why it is so heavy unionize

 

[AWE Dog]

Come on Black Swan, You know the guys who will sign few a few %. Nic was the best thing that could have happened, I would like to be a A330 Captain before I am 30. Just think how well I could have done if I had some college, but the DWI's did slow my career a little. But thanks to Nic, I gained thousands of numbers with the stroke of a pen. The east guys next to me on the list are decades older than myself. Nic said its perfectly fair, so its mine all mine. The judge even says so. Just because the east isn't honorable, I might take me till I'm 32.

 

[cleardirect]

Which was a direct result of September 2001.......You know the day that changed our profession forever as we know it. It was also the day the rest of the airline industry and their management teams (THIS TIME OUTSIDE of AZ) declared open season on LABOR.

So short of another cataclysmic economic event that took place back in the 90s....Refresh my memory what event caused such a financial powerhouse as AWA into BK? Surely it wasn't the level of compensation of it's employees. Mesa entered the market? Inquiring minds would like to know. Or were you still in grade school back then?



Didn't know that AWA had a college......Is that the fabled Rio Salado Community College or the W.A. Franke School of Business?
Criminal behavior out in AZ - say it ain't so. You guys have Dougie's best friend Sheriff Joe watching your back. Not going to happen on his beat.

History lesson. Gulf war one and the run up of fuel prices.

 

[luvn737s]

You do know that the west pilots closest to holding a left seat on the east side (those displaced) only moved about 3% or less on the Nic list compared to the separate lists.

You do understand that unless you were furloughed at the PID the Nic list is not a staple job.

Hardly an avalanche.

Remember, the USAirways you used to work for exists only in name (unfortunately for the unrealistic expectations). You now work for a different airline and you are not grafting west pilots onto your list. A totally new list has been accepted.

Unlike USAPA, who never solicited any west opinion or participation in crafting their C&BLs, the east had full participation in developing the new list, but squandered that opportunity but refusing to accept the reality that DOH was a non-starter.

You can't undo the past, but you can move forward.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Come on Black Swan, You know the guys who will sign few a few %. Nic was the best thing that could have happened, I would like to be a A330 Captain before I am 30. Just think how well I could have done if I had some college, but the DWI's did slow my career a little. But thanks to Nic, I gained thousands of numbers with the stroke of a pen. The east guys next to me on the list are decades older than myself. Nic said its perfectly fair, so its mine all mine. The judge even says so. Just because the east isn't honorable, I might take me till I'm 32.

Fantasyland, Adventureland, Disneyland?

Even if the NIC were a straight ratio integration your little fantasy doesn't even come close to reality. Of course with the wideboby protections built into the NIC seniority list, your little made up scenario is about as cogent as a perfectly round square.

 

[Black Swan]

Fantasyland, Adventureland, Disneyland?

Even if the NIC were a straight ratio integration your little fantasy doesn't even come close to reality. Of course with the wideboby protections built into the NIC seniority list, your little made up scenario is about as cogent as a perfectly round square.

You don't get it. I am not signing the joint contract. I'm not signing ANYTHING that puts any of you anywhere.I AM HAPPY WITH THE WAY THINGS ARE! I sold the big house, I don't have the boat, I have the beach house! I have the first wife! Do you get it? I don't need to sign anything that harms anyone on the EAST.Not after what they have gone through. You better get used to the hard and fast reality that if, and I say if, we get LOA 84 rates, you guys just better get used to a whole new reality, a reality of no joint contract, ever. We certainly didn't get any help from you in bringing our pay up, so all I can say is if we get the LOA 84, you guys are going to get no help back. It is that simple.If we don't get LOA 84, I say we propose a deal with the company to split the difference on a new interim pay rate in a LOA to "help them out in these tough times" I sense a lot of 30 to 40 yr. old sentiments here. Remember. We have been through a whole lot more here on the East without you, for a lot longer and we are prepared to go it alone again whatever happens. We are in our upper 50's. We are going to take care of our right seaters, and do the right thing. We will NEVER, NEVER vote for a joint contract that enables you to get what you don't deserve. Get it???This is no fantasy. Give me the ballot, and I will make it a reality.

 

[Hate2fly]

You don't get it. I am not signing the joint contract. I'm not signing ANYTHING that puts any of you anywhere.I AM HAPPY WITH THE WAY THINGS ARE! I sold the big house, I don't have the boat, I have the beach house! I have the first wife! Do you get it? I don't need to sign anything that harms anyone on the EAST.Not after what they have gone through. You better get used to the hard and fast reality that if, and I say if, we get LOA 84 rates, you guys just better get used to a whole new reality, a reality of no joint contract, ever. We certainly didn't get any help from you in bringing our pay up, so all I can say is if we get the LOA 84, you guys are going to get no help back. It is that simple.If we don't get LOA 84, I say we propose a deal with the company to split the difference on a new interim pay rate in a LOA to "help them out in these tough times" I sense a lot of 30 to 40 yr. old sentiments here. Remember. We have been through a whole lot more here on the East without you, for a lot longer and we are prepared to go it alone again whatever happens. We are in our upper 50's. We are going to take care of our right seaters, and do the right thing. We will NEVER, NEVER vote for a joint contract that enables you to get what you don't deserve. Get it???This is no fantasy. Give me the ballot, and I will make it a reality.

Black Swan,

We have tried to tell the westies that we have shared the same cockpits for more than 2 decades and that is something they do not understand. The majority of us will never let the travesty of the Nicolau Lottery Ticket Award ever happen! Even some ALPA supporters will never vote for a joint contract with the Nicolau because they will forever be a first officer.

Hate

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

Didn't know that AWA had a college......Is that the fabled Rio Salado Community College or the W.A. Franke School of Business?
Criminal behavior out in AZ - say it ain't so. You guys have Dougie's best friend Sheriff Joe watching your back. Not going to happen on his beat.

The valedictorian of the AWA college- W.A. Franke School of Business is laughing all the way to the bank, to the tune of the raise we should have gotten. :angry:

Yes, Mr. Parker is a survivor of the Franke era, and was a very good student too. :blink:

As for the criminal behavior....you sound as bad a cleary and the PMI. It takes a conviction to be a criminal, dismissed is dismissed is dismissed. I would assume the government would have to file charges for there to be criminal behavior. Making false accusations is criminal behavior.....

 

[Hate2fly]

Come on Black Swan, You know the guys who will sign few a few %. Nic was the best thing that could have happened, I would like to be a A330 Captain before I am 30. Just think how well I could have done if I had some college, but the DWI's did slow my career a little. But thanks to Nic, I gained thousands of numbers with the stroke of a pen. The east guys next to me on the list are decades older than myself. Nic said its perfectly fair, so its mine all mine. The judge even says so. Just because the east isn't honorable, I might take me till I'm 32.

Yo Dog,

Great post! I had to read it twice to figure it out. You speak the truth!

Hate

 

[ebwgs]

Which was a direct result of September 2001.......You know the day that changed our profession forever as we know it. It was also the day the rest of the airline industry and their management teams (THIS TIME OUTSIDE of AZ) declared open season on LABOR.

So short of another cataclysmic economic event that took place back in the 90s....Refresh my memory what event caused such a financial powerhouse as AWA into BK? Surely it wasn't the level of compensation of it's employees. Mesa entered the market? Inquiring minds would like to know. Or were you still in grade school back then?



Didn't know that AWA had a college......Is that the fabled Rio Salado Community College or the W.A. Franke School of Business?
Criminal behavior out in AZ - say it ain't so. You guys have Dougie's best friend Sheriff Joe watching your back. Not going to happen on his beat.

Hey Glucose actually the "cataclysmic economic event" that drove HP into Chap 11 back then was the Persian Gulf war. The accompanying spike in oil prices coupled with the unsustainable turbo growth that drove HP back in those days--must I mention those 4 unreliable KLM 747s that we flew to Hawaii and Nagoya, Japan, as well as PHXLASPHX and PHXJFKPHX--were the culprits that drove HP into insolvency. That economic event, along with PA103 aided in Pan Am's and Midway I's eventual demise in 1991.

It really doesn't matter who came closer to Chap 7. That argument doesn't amount to a hill of beans. One thing we do know is that it didn't happen in either case., and I thank God because none of us would be here today. Kudos to the old US management team for keeping this company alive in the wake of 9/11.

 

[nic4us]

You don't get it. I am not signing the joint contract. I'm not signing ANYTHING that puts any of you anywhere.I AM HAPPY WITH THE WAY THINGS ARE!................................... We certainly didn't get any help from you in bringing our pay up, so all I can say is if we get the LOA 84, you guys are going to get no help back. It is that simple.If we don't get LOA 84, I say we propose a deal with the company to split the difference on a new interim pay rate in a LOA to "help them out in these tough times"...................................We will NEVER, NEVER vote for a joint contract that enables you to get what you don't deserve.

Glad you are happy with the way things are, however, they most certainly are going to change.

While it is true that the West did not help you get parity, as I recall, it was the east that walked out of neotiations that would have gotten us all parity plus. In essence, the east gave up any shot at parity with their refusal to negotiate. Your split the difference proposal is laughable. Why would the company cut the east any deals? Split the difference on what, a pay scale you are not going to get and your current pay? I think they would pass on that kind offer. How about they keep you on status quo and do not risk being held liable in the damages trial. Would not want the impression of collusion with the rogue union.

We will not ask you to vote on a joint contract that gives the West any thing we do not deserve, what kind of scumbags do you take us for? usapa are the only folks around here willing to break the law to get something they do not deserve. The West deserves Nicolau, the east deserves Nicolau, the company deserves Nicolau. The only party trying to get something they do not deserve are the 2600 some odd east pilots who voted in usapa. That is no fantasy!

 

[nic4us]

The majority of us will never let the travesty of the Nicolau Lottery Ticket Award ever happen!

By lottery ticket award, do you mean against incredible odds, having great monetary value, or relating to a gamble?

By majority, do you mean the age at which a person is no longer a minor and is capable of being legally responsible for their actions, or, a superior number of whining crybabies who will never get their way?

 

[Metroyet]

Black Swan,

We have tried to tell the westies that we have shared the same cockpits for more than 2 decades and that is something they do not understand. The majority of us will never let the travesty of the Nicolau Lottery Ticket Award ever happen! Even some ALPA supporters will never vote for a joint contract with the Nicolau because they will forever be a first officer.

Hate

B.F.D. "yawn" as Eastus was so fond of saying. It's a free country...stick your head in the sand if you like.

 

[Black Swan]

B.F.D. "yawn" as Eastus was so fond of saying. It's a free country...stick your head in the sand if you like.

What does not voting to enable a windfall have to do with sticking your head in the sand? I would say it is a clear enunciation of a path going forward, and letting you know exactly where you stand, so you can do what you wish. You are not getting a vote from the East that is going to enable you to take advantage of anybody.Plan accordingly. If LOA 84 rates go forward, then you are really going to have a "situation." If this is sticking my head in the sand, then here is something I see down there- you are going to get as much help from us getting a raise as you gave us. I would say allowing that in the beginning was a gross poor judgement call on behalf of your leadership. We all clearly knew what kind of people you were from the start, and planned accordingly. Talk about sticking your head in the sand......You reap what you sow.