US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/14- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[Hate2fly]

B.F.D. "yawn" as Eastus was so fond of saying. It's a free country...stick your head in the sand if you like.

You westies are really worked up lately...........you will assume your rightful position (DOH) when we say you can.

It is really that simple!

Hate

 

[luvn737s]

There sure is alot of emotion driving the posts here, especially from the newbies. I always thought that was a rather undesireable trait in a pilot.

Plan your flight and fly your plan. Your plan (east's) was supposed to be: Participate in seniority integration and joint contract. It fell apart when Get DOH-itis set in.

The real plan, I guess was actually: Get the biggest bite of the apple first and when that failed they started making stuff up and everything unravelled from there.

Go back to the original plan and shuck the emotion. It never gets you anywhere.

 

[Hate2fly]

There sure is alot of emotion driving the posts here, especially from the newbies. I always thought that was a rather undesireable trait in a pilot.

Plan your flight and fly your plan. Your plan (east's) was supposed to be: Participate in seniority integration and joint contract. It fell apart when Get DOH-itis set in.

The real plan, I guess was actually: Get the biggest bite of the apple first and when that failed they started making stuff up and everything unravelled from there.

Go back to the original plan and shuck the emotion. It never gets you anywhere.

You westies had a Premature Adjudication.............when you get a little older this will not happen.

When the 9th launches this thing on the ripeness issue............I don't think you will ever see a joint CBA.

The only thing that is concrete is the east resolve.......you can take that to the bank!

Hate

 

[Black Swan]

There sure is alot of emotion driving the posts here, especially from the newbies. I always thought that was a rather undesireable trait in a pilot.

Plan your flight and fly your plan. Your plan (east's) was supposed to be: Participate in seniority integration and joint contract. It fell apart when Get DOH-itis set in.

The real plan, I guess was actually: Get the biggest bite of the apple first and when that failed they started making stuff up and everything unravelled from there.

Go back to the original plan and shuck the emotion. It never gets you anywhere.

I agree, but we are not flying the jet here, we are talking about something else.This sounds like something my teenager would say to me to make me feel like he was in control. Simple rules of engagement. My plan all along was something fair. I never had a say in what the ALPA slugs did, and I am a 33 yr. ex member. At the point we got involved with you, they had already had their way with us.We didn't get to vote on the pension, and that was the last straw. At this point, I am driving my own ship. Most likely have been through 2 more BK's than you. I have had enough. This Nicolau list was a joke, and I will never vote for a contract in which it lives.I didn't agree to it, had nothing to do with it. It was a windfall. I am prepared and I feel most of my fellow East pilots also to stay right here, and wait for the attrition to kick in. If LOA 84 comes our way, than that just makes it so much easier.If it doesn 't then we dig in for the long haul and do what it takes with regards to $If we do get it, I would say it is a real concern for your side. It could become very uncomfortable for you as you have put your self in the position by not helping us.Familiarize yourself with those rates. I believe the East pilots will be more than willing to take them for the remainder of their careers without ever negotiating with the company ever again. At this point we will not facilitate management or any other group that comes calling for anything. You will get a hostile reception. Be prepared. I see no possibility of a joint contract or pilot integration. It just will not work safely. You most likely are significantly younger, and have more at stake. This is what the reality is. You can tell me to get my head out of the sand or get real or whatever. The point is this- most of us are at the end of the line, with not much to lose. This is not emotion. This is just where we stand. You are never getting a joint contract with us with my vote. No emotion, just facts. That is my plan. We won't leave the cockpit like some of you think. You just will never get the contract you think you need.

 

[luvn737s]

If you have nothing to lose, then why stick around making your final years miserable? If you are so devoted to the F/O's then why not give them the gift of retirement?

In fact you have quite a bit to lose. Actions always speak louder than words. Those who say the east is more unified than they have ever seen are deluding themselves. The east hasnever been unified and never will be unified. The tiger cannot change it's stripes. And there must be something that the east is willing to defend with it's very last dime, but I'm at a loss to figure out what it is.

How much defense does the worst paying major airline job deserve?


Put away the bluster and emotion and tell the truth. What besides vindictiveness against the west is driving this all-consuming effort when there is nothing to lose?

 

[luvn737s]

And USAPA must negotiate a joint contract in good faith if it expects to take in any dues money. In case you're just waking up, the DFR case is all about representing the interests of folks you don't agree with.

However, should USAPA be forced to fold, then the company would be free to institute the Nicolau award and reap all the savings it provides, while at the same time unilaterally dictating the terms of employment and pay rates. USAPA is a disease that needs the strongest medicine to fight it.

I would become familiar with that more likely scenario, than the Wish Upon a Star strategy of snapping back to LOA84 rates.

The past is gone.

 

[traderjake]

At PI we got a reasonable seniority in the U merger, but there are guys on both sides who will take to the grave that they got screwed.

Piedmont Captains lost their seats and were later replaced by USAir First Officers who could not of hold Captain before the merger.

Only USAPA supporters think that's reasonable.

 

[AWE Dog]

Hey Luvn, Look in the mirror. The only thing the west has been unified over is the Nic. I'm not getting a $10k plus check Jan 1, are you? Snapbacks for the west? The west has never made any good money to snap back to. So what has this great unified west accomplished? West and east pay is a joke.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Everytime I wander onto this thread it never ceases to amaze me how a group of people who are skilled enough to fly and land large planes can't see the forest for the trees.

Everyday there is no contract Doug Parker wins. The money he saves, plus what you spend fighting is gone forever. Oh I know it's the principle of the thing and what's fair. NEWS FLASH, It's business and no where in modern business is there room for fair. You get what you negotiate plain and simple. If you're litigating instead of negotiating then both pilot groups have already lost.

Every day that you fail to unite against the common enemy is a day you lose money out of your pocket. Principle is a wonderful thing to stand on. However it's not nearly as helpful as cold hard cash when it comes to wife #3's alimony or that really nice boat you have in a marina on Long Beach Island now is it?

Money talks and Bullshite walks and so far after how many years all you have is Bullshite. How's that working for you?

I never ceases to amaze me that someone with no working knowledge to the whole situation can pontificate on why we're doing it all wrong.

We have to weigh options all the time. We do have the option on caving in on the Nicolau list and hoping upon hope that the company will actually bargain in good faith and promptly come up with an industry scale contract. We who have actually BEEN there know that is not likely to happen even if the east and west pilots finally agreed on seniority and held a 5,000 person group hug.

Pay raises can easily be ephemeral. Seniority is not. We get to choose our battles, and, no matter how strange it may look to outsiders, they are our battles and not yours. We know why we fight for some things and not others. Until you walk in our shoes, please don't lecture. Thank you for you input. Now, good bye.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I would not be at all surprised if federal marshalls show up in CLT to escort usapa officers with their dictionaries to PHX where they can read to the court the definition of "Immediately".

Doubtful.

Just an educated guess, here, but when the NAC passed USAPAs Section 22 proposal across the table last year, the injunction had not been issued. I believe Section 22 has not been brought to the table since then. The company and the NAC agree on their meeting times and what sections will be discussed. If Section 22 has not been placed on the agenda since the injunction was issued, then it stand to reason that the matter is right where they left it last year. The judge didn't set the NAC/company negotiations agenda, did he?

Now, if Section 22 comes up on the negotiating agenda and the NAC does not withdraw its proposal, maybe Wake will get perturbed. Meantime, the NAC has no official channel to withdraw its Section 22 proposal which can only be done at the table.

 

[nycbusdriver]

However, should USAPA be forced to fold, then the company would be free to institute the Nicolau award and reap all the savings it provides, while at the same time unilaterally dictating the terms of employment and pay rates. USAPA is a disease that needs the strongest medicine to fight it.

However, should USAPA be forced to fold, the company would be free to institute the DOH list (or the alphabetical list, or the DOB list, or the equipment specific list, etc.) and reap the savings it might provide, while at the same time unilaterally imposing LOA 93 on everybody as they have already threatened to do once before. USAPA is the only thing keeping the west employed because, should the company decide to close another crew base, it may just be Phoenix. And without a union, that could mean all PHX based pilots get the boot.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Pay raises can easily be ephemeral. Seniority is not. We get to choose our battles, and, no matter how strange it may look to outsiders, they are our battles and not yours. We know why we fight for some things and not others. Until you walk in our shoes, please don't lecture. Thank you for you input. Now, good bye.

So if I walked in your shoes I would abandon all moral constraints and support an organization that was formed for the express purpose of violating a lawfully binding agreement.

Doubtful. Lack of character is not correlated to how far one walks along their path. There is simply no excuse for USAPA negotiating in bad faith. Seham fully admitted it when he asked the 9th to remove the injunction that prevents his client from pushing a DOH list which the company and courts have already declared to be unlawful.

 

[Glucose Intolerant]

It really doesn't matter who came closer to Chap 7. That argument doesn't amount to a hill of beans. One thing we do know is that it didn't happen in either case., and I thank God because none of us would be here today. Kudos to the old US management team for keeping this company alive in the wake of 9/11.

Now that is the smartest thing that I have read on here in a long while. I am thankful as well, regardless of what I felt at the time - they did do alright because it can always get worse.
One only needs to look around. HAS anyone actually looked up from their Blackberry or Computer Screen long enough to see the absolute joke of an operation we are running?

The people benefiting from ALL this EAST/WEST non sense, are the ONES that that have been playing both sides like a Stradivarius. "We" are just too stupid to realize it - we are too busy fighting one another. 5 years into this train wreck and both East and West have one thing in common: contempt for the bone heads running this operation. Who said "WE" couldn't agree.

This whole thing is almost like the Allegheny County debacle and pulling down PIT. Allegheny County and US Airways basically got themselves into the mess they find themselves because neither side was willing to compromise. So guess what both sides get screwed and someone else profited from the misfortune brought to thousands of employees, customers, and a region because of pig headed stubbornness ON BOTH SIDES. Instead of developing a solution - "they" created a problem that someone will eventually profit on, too bad it wasn't the ones that had a stake in it.

What if BOTH sides had yielded to a more common ground? Well put it this way - we would no longer need to pad the hell out of our flight times for OTP, we wouldn't have to.

What if, without the help of a geriatric arbitrator, a case of single malt scotch and a locked hotel meeting room were substituted? No one from EITHER SIDE leaves until the matter is SETTLED SATISFACTORILY TO BOTH SIDES.......not crammed down one side or another expeditiously. BUT SETTLED SATISFACTORILY TO BOTH SIDES.

Do you think that can be accomplished? I am betting a hell of a lot a lot faster than you think.

But "We" can't do that - That would be "too simple", "too Old School". Remember Acom's Razor? The simplest solution tends to be the correct one. NOW there is a concept - I call it K.I.S.S. That is also what "we" can all tell Parker,Glass, Hemenway, and Kirby and all their little Kool Aid droids in PHX to do to a certain anatomical region of all of "our" collective posteriors once we resolve this matter amicably.

But No "WE" all would much rather sit around and give our fellow colleagues the "skunk eye" as we pass by one another, and continue to spew the 24/7 hubris on the internet and in the courtroom... at great personal expense and the peril of our profession.

So who in the end is ultimately the winner? The guy with no tie- no clue and a Diet Dr. Pepper? Hope it was worth it guys. Doug sure thinks so.

BOTH side need to step up and resolve this matter NOW. And no matter the intensity of the rhetoric, both side are capable of compromise.
One thing is for sure, neither East nor West are never going to get to their desired destination on this current heading.

It doesn't matter what a judge in PHX says, the Union(s), the Attorneys, the 9th Circuit , SCOTUS, or the guys just like myself that waste ENTIRELY TOO MUCH of their life reading the BS on this board. "We" all could be out doing something else more enjoyable and enjoying our lives and possibly our job.

Sooner or later "we" are going to have to come to a common ground or that is where US Airways (not just pilots) will remain permanently. Maybe this time we can get it right, Let's hope so.

Happy Holidays to ALL

 

[CallawayGolf]

However, should USAPA be forced to fold, the company would be free to institute the DOH list (or the alphabetical list, or the DOB list, or the equipment specific list, etc.) and reap the savings it might provide, while at the same time unilaterally imposing LOA 93 on everybody as they have already threatened to do once before. USAPA is the only thing keeping the west employed because, should the company decide to close another crew base, it may just be Phoenix. And without a union, that could mean all PHX based pilots get the boot.

I fully agree on your first point. As to the second, by all means let USAPA collapse and PHX and the west pilots will do even better than they are now. The union is a total waste of everyone's resources.

 

[cleardirect]

I agree, but we are not flying the jet here, we are talking about something else.This sounds like something my teenager would say to me to make me feel like he was in control. Simple rules of engagement. My plan all along was something fair. I never had a say in what the ALPA slugs did, and I am a 33 yr. ex member. At the point we got involved with you, they had already had their way with us.We didn't get to vote on the pension, and that was the last straw. At this point, I am driving my own ship. Most likely have been through 2 more BK's than you. I have had enough. This Nicolau list was a joke, and I will never vote for a contract in which it lives.I didn't agree to it, had nothing to do with it. It was a windfall. I am prepared and I feel most of my fellow East pilots also to stay right here, and wait for the attrition to kick in. If LOA 84 comes our way, than that just makes it so much easier.If it doesn 't then we dig in for the long haul and do what it takes with regards to $If we do get it, I would say it is a real concern for your side. It could become very uncomfortable for you as you have put your self in the position by not helping us.Familiarize yourself with those rates. I believe the East pilots will be more than willing to take them for the remainder of their careers without ever negotiating with the company ever again. At this point we will not facilitate management or any other group that comes calling for anything. You will get a hostile reception. Be prepared. I see no possibility of a joint contract or pilot integration. It just will not work safely. You most likely are significantly younger, and have more at stake. This is what the reality is. You can tell me to get my head out of the sand or get real or whatever. The point is this- most of us are at the end of the line, with not much to lose. This is not emotion. This is just where we stand. You are never getting a joint contract with us with my vote. No emotion, just facts. That is my plan. We won't leave the cockpit like some of you think. You just will never get the contract you think you need.

If you have not read the injunction this is it. If as you say you would like to remain where you are. The officers at usapa would be found in contempt of a federal order. You may wish to have no joint contract but the officers I believe would prefer their freedom to a jail cell.

The west has come to learn that the threats of many actions are hollow smoke filled chest beating that mean nothing. Until a vote on a contract happens a single opinion means nothing. Let's see how that vote would turn out.

Plus usapa has a duty to represent, get a new contract and protect the one we have now. If usapa fails to get a new contract in a reasonable time they will be replaced or the NMB might have something to say about their actions. That clock is ticking down I expect more of the same New Years Eve popper and smoke as a reaction. In short nothing.

A. Immediately, and in good faith, make all reasonable efforts to negotiate and
implement a single collective bargaining agreement with US Airways that will
implement the Nicolau Award seniority proposal unmodified, according to its terms;

B. Make all reasonable efforts to support and defend the seniority rights provided
by or arising from the Nicolau Award in negotiations with US Airways; and

C. Not negotiate for separate collective bargaining agreements for the separate
pilot groups, but rather negotiate for a single collective bargaining agreement for both
pilot groups that incorporates the Nicolau Award. This injunction does not restrain
USAPA from pursuing its rights under Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act, consistent
with the previous sentence.