US Pilots' Labor Discussion 10/27-11/?

[Reed Richards]

I believe a better use of pilot income would not be a $270 and two $540 assessments, which will do nothing but pay USAPA attorney David Butler $100,000 per month and the Pension Investigation Committee FPL so they do not have to fly the line, but instead this could be used to help find a way to prevent 165 East and 35 West furloughs.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Let me get this straight. If I read your last paragraph correctly, you are advocating a separate assessment to "find a way to prevent furloughs." I guess you will be bringing your resolution to the next LGA meeting (if there is another) to do just that..oops, you cannot attend. You have no vote. Clearer, more logical heads will make the decisions for you, and you will pay your 94%.

RR

 

[aquagreen73s]

Clearer, more logical heads will make the decisions for you, and you will pay your 94%.

RR

I'm sure those "clearer, more logical heads" will be busy trying to find yet another disguise for masking the truth that all East losses are not really losses, but were voluntarily relinquishments. But keep the spin machine going: Cactus 18, PBGC conspiracy, a supremely confident DFR defense....it just keeps getting better around here! Since the West kicked the livin daylights out of you, perhaps you should venture down to the lowest of lows and just find some kid and try to take his lunch money. I mean, why bother doing something that takes guts, like standing up to the company for once?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Let me get this straight. If I read your last paragraph correctly, you are advocating a separate assessment to "find a way to prevent furloughs."

In theory there is a way without another assessment - leave the pension investigation assessment in the pilots pockets in exchange for blockholders flying 3 hours less a month. That should prevent most, if not all the furloughs (at least on the East side, don't know how much flexibility the West contract allows).

If I were Czar, I'd ask the lawyer some questions first though - has any employee group ever been successful in getting a terminated pension plan reinstated, has any employee group ever botten a judgement against those in charge of the terminated plan and if so how much did the employees get. Presumably those questions have been asked.

Having said all that, these days a union has to tread carefully when it comes to "recommending" contractually legal actions to those it represents. Judges slapped around APA and the UA MEC when, as I recall, APA claimed they had nothing to do with the pilot's actions and the UA MEC was "recommending" that pilot's not accept voluntary extra flying.

Jim

 

[USA320Pilot]

What East pilots need to understand is the Pension Investigation is about looking at some specific trades by some specific DB Pension Fund Managers.

The DB Pension Fund was a “Master Trustâ€￾ representing all the DB pension plans at US Airways at the time including the DB plan that management then had. In other words, all the DB plans at US Airways were in the exact same fund managed by the exact same people.

The Master Trust outperformed the Dow Joes Industrial Average during this period of time, much like a mutual fund that is beating the market.

So, the fund beat the Dow (it's a master trust with all the DB plans including management's) had some trades that were losers, but despite that, the fund beat the market. Now USAPA wants an investigation to challenge the specific trades that kept the plan/trust from even further outperforming the market. And, the USAPA argument is that we should get more PBGC money for the US Airways pilots because these losing trades (in the master trust) weren't properly supervised by the PBGC.

Now USAPA wants the pilots to spend millions of dollars of their earnings while paying a law firm $100,000.00 a month to pursue this.

And, the goal is not the restoration of our DB Plan and USAPA wants to prove fraud or criminal in the corporate offices for a fund that outperformed the market.

Is this once gain somebody's “Gut Feelingâ€￾ in the Hardline Union leadership camp that we can produce a precedent setting policy change with the PBGC with this “investigationâ€￾ and lawsuit of the PBGC?

And, people wonder why I cannot support USAPA, which continues to hurt East & West pilots and the company over-and-over again.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[ClueByFour]

That is a great solution. I'll bet everyone would opt in. As a member of the "Vaughn Group" lawsuit still pending its way through the federal court system, I find pilots all the time asking if there is any way for them to join as a defendant in that suit. Unfortunately, that door closed years ago.

Is that the class action thing against (among other parties) RSA or the age discrimination one? I thought the age discrimination claim hit it's demise in NY Federal court in July of 2008.

 

[ClueByFour]

USAPA tried every means to get the nonsense to stop. They threatened legal action if it continued. It continued. And they sued. Why not take it to the end? The pilots involved made their own beds, let them lie in them. They could have stopped their nonsense far short of legal action, but they thought they were dealing with an ALPA-like paper tiger and decided to call USAPA's bluff. They lose. Tough. No one to blame but themselves.\

"every means?" Nonsense.

If it actually happened (which, as I've opined here, I doubt the severity was what USAPA said it was), it would have taken about 3 phone calls, and the feds in North Carolina would have handled it on their end. Instead, USAPA chose to employ a simple barratry strategy. It's very fortunate for USAPA that there exists no federal SLAPP statute, or it would have found itself broke before the fallout of the Addington damage trial even hits.

Beyond that, USAPA has to be the only organization on the planet who thinks that dealing with a 5k/month problem (which can be addressed technically by those with just a smidge more know-how than the USAPA webmaster or whatever cheeseball "friend of a friend" they outsourced their voice operations to) and pay 100k+ in legal fees over more than 20 months to make it go away. The logic is astounding.

But they look tough.

 

[Pi brat]

In theory there is a way without another assessment - leave the pension investigation assessment in the pilots pockets in exchange for blockholders flying 3 hours less a month. That should prevent most, if not all the furloughs (at least on the East side, don't know how much flexibility the West contract allows).

Jim

Jim,

You know more about the sch. system than I do, but I don't think that would work on the east. With a large % of our pilots on reserve and the LTO sytem the company has a huge extra flex cap. Rarely do reserves ever break guarntee and they have to be available to 100 hours. That would allow the company to absorb a lot of block reduction. If the company would agree to reduce the pay cap so everyone had to do it, maybe so, but we know how much voluntary cooperation there is on the east.

 

[Pi brat]

I was not "asking" for the facts. Pesky money problems seem to be popping up everywhere.... except at USAPA. I can only wonder how it will all turn out. Perhaps the end game is closer than we all thought. Money talks and..well, you know.

RR

Wow, it's funny how a post can jog memories from a converstation a year ago. That's the real reason for the C18 suit isn't it? Outspend the west group to victory, don't worry about merit. Disgusting.

 

[hp_fa]

Wow, it's funny how a post can jog memories from a converstation a year ago. That's the real reason for the C18 suit isn't it? Outspend the west group to victory, don't worry about merit. Disgusting.

Yes, that sure seems like the strategy and they also seemingly went out of their way to hide that real strategy the same way they hid the real reason for USAPA being formed as a means to undo Nicolau. Judge Wake referred to it as pretext. I believe that the judge saw right through the whole thing.

BTW, how is Seham's retirement funding going? General Counsel, litigation counsel, appellate counsel. Isn't he now trying to get other non-pilot clients to form an alliance with USAPA? The problem is he isn't George Meany....

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim,

You know more about the sch. system than I do, but I don't think that would work on the east.

You may be right - I haven't paid much attention to the reserve coverage until the 2010 bid came out and it's heavy on reserves on GpII and E190 FO's. Of course, the other side is that some blockholders might drop more than 3 hours a month. I only used the 3 hours because that's worth about $540 in pay for A330 captains. You could make it 4 hours (~$540 for GpII captains) or 5 hours (~$540 for senior FO's/E190 capt), etc.

But as I said, federal judges have been pretty stern with unions that recommended contractually legal actions to the pilots so I'm not sure it's something a union would want to get into.

The one thing about the east scheduling system is that it's relatively easy to fly as little as 70-75 hours/month with a 95 hour pay cap for those that fly 4 day or TA trips - I had the stack of "Low Time" letters in my box when I retired to prove it.

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

Is that the class action thing against (among other parties) RSA or the age discrimination one? I thought the age discrimination claim hit it's demise in NY Federal court in July of 2008.

It's not a class action suit. It is a civil suit filed by approximately 300 +/- pilots against RSA, USAirways, and ALPA. RSA wiggled out of it on a states' rights issue, and USAirways slithered out when they declared bankruptcy the second time. (There is some conjecture that this lawsuit was a factor in their decision to again file Chapter 11.) All that's left as a defendant is ALPA. The lawsuit is alive and well since its inception in 2003. Gee, those federal courts really are slow.

 

[hp_fa]

:down:

Gee, those federal courts really are slow.

That's not what Seham is claiming in Arizona or at the Ninth Circuit......

 

[Hawkhunter]

And, people wonder why I cannot support USAPA, which continues to hurt East & West pilots and the company over-and-over again.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Nobody wonders and nobody cares.

 

[luvthe9]

Nobody wonders and nobody cares.

You beat me to it Hawk, I was thinking the same thing

 

[USA320Pilot]

I just heard the Pension Investigation Committee told pilots at the recent DCA Road Show that the East pilot assessment could last 2 to 3 years. If so pilots could be assessed a total of $1,890 for very little if any chance of obtaining anything.

But, USAPA officials have their $12,000 to $18,000 per year stipend bonus pay with USAPA Officers and some Committee members being paid no less than 85 hours A330 First Officer pay, USAPA purchased two new Taurus vehicles for their use, USAPA has authorized Officers to receive a union paid household move to CLT and when their term of office is over another household move to anywhere in the U.S., a housing allowance 14 times the max training or crew overnight hotel rate plus tax round up to the next $100, and now additional use of automobiles, if necessary.

Who pays for this? The pilots once again who blindly enrich USAPA officials. In my opinion, when ALPA likely returns there will not be the USAPA "gravy train" any more.

Regards,

USA320Pilot