US Pilots Labor Discussion 10/13-- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Pi brat]

I just listened to the state of the company address and I have had a change of heart. It has been said on here how the seniority fight has damaged the airline and how the east was the Titanic. I agree. The east is running this place into the ground! Look at the 3rd quarter. It's awful! Listen to the question from a westie that talks about market share. Listen to Kirby about how PHL is able to compete with SWA and PHX is challenged due to leisure markets.

LOA 93 captain pay is better than Kirby F/O pay.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I hope you don't mind if we all carry on with more important matters.

I know accuracy isn't important to some on the East - thanks for showing me your membership card.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Listen to Kirby about how PHL is able to compete with SWA and PHX is challenged due to leisure markets.

Wonder how Kirby would spin it if WN had nearly 200 daily flights at PHL...

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Wonder how Kirby would spin it if WN had nearly 200 daily flights at PHL...

Jim

Not that kirby or Parker are above spinning if they need to, but why do you think he needed to spin that, to make east pilots feel better? I don't know if it was spin or not, he said they had pulled back a little there.

 

[767jetz]

Could we please move on to pertinent issues other than a case that has no meaning...

It means it was erased.

You are correct in that it has no meaning now... until the next DFR suit is filed, if USAPA ever gets to a ratified DOH contract. (A minute chance for sure.) Then it definitely has some value to the west.

And no matter how many times anyone says it, the case is not erased. It was dismissed due to ripeness. First the case was tried. Then USAPA was found GUILTY. THEN it was dismissed due to ripeness, and ripeness only. Doesn't change the fact that when a neutral jury of it's peers looked at the merit of the case, THEY (and not the biased talking heads of USAPA) determined what was fair or not. They clearly and quickly decided that USAPA was not being fair, Nic was fair, and USAPA was guilty.

One can not escape the past or the truth no matter how hard one tries. Not the Addington case. Not binding arbitration. Not pilots furloughed after 18 years. None of it. In know it's hard for USAPA to come to terms with this, but no one (outside of the east) is being fooled by their spin machine.

 

[767jetz]

You state USAPA is ILLEGALLY trying to circumvent binding arbitration. What statute have they illegally violated? I have looked and there is nothing illegal.

By starting a union with the specific intent of avoiding binding arbitration, and with the specific goal of using the majority to harm the minority.

And btw, I still think OJ is guilty even though he was never convicted by the court.

 

[767jetz]

I agree and can't understand why the west pilots don't do everything they can to get to that point.

They will, after the DJ plays out. Right now the DJ is the best fast route to resolution. It is to their benefit to see it through. USAPA, not so much. Which is why they are fighting it so hard. As I said before, if the DJ states that the company is not off the hook if they stray from the Nic, it's game over. If not, the west continues with plan A with an injunction and DFR II, if and when there is a DOH contract. Don't worry, it will be easier to understand as things unfold.

 

[Freebird]

They will, after the DJ plays out. Right now the DJ is the best fast route to resolution. It is to their benefit to see it through. USAPA, not so much. Which is why they are fighting it so hard. As I said before, if the DJ states that the company is not off the hook if they stray from the Nic, it's game over. If not, the west continues with plan A with an injunction and DFR II, if and when there is a DOH contract. Don't worry, it will be easier to understand as things unfold.

And in the meantime USAPA will continue to keep the East pilots the lowest paid in the industry.

I saw USAPA's 'contract' information pamphlet. 8 pages of USAPA pointing the finger at everyone but themselves. I did notice the LOA93 vacation days for the East. 21 days? The West has 31, SWA 35 and Alaska 41.

The financial report is another beauty.

Professional Fees : $4,189,133 (Seham "Thanks" you, enjoy the 21 days of vacation)
Employee Salaries : $ 304,433
Office & Admin: $ 601.289
Ad hoc committees: $ 882,716
Negotiations committee: $ 597,039
Merger Committee: $ 107,507


USAPA = Spending your money like drunken sailors...

 

[ROACLT]

THEN it was dismissed due to ripeness, and ripeness only. Doesn't change the fact that when a neutral jury of it's peers looked at the merit of the case, THEY (and not the biased talking heads of USAPA) determined what was fair or not. They clearly and quickly decided that USAPA was not being fair, Nic was fair, and USAPA was guilty.

Decisions a jury made based on only the evidence that was allowed to be heard by that particular judge, based on his particular rulings along with Jury instructions that failed to instruct the legal definition of "bad faith", as defined by SCOTUS. You fail to mention that this all a moot point with the dismissal.

What you should be more concerned about is what the 9th commented on along with ruling on ripeness. What a new judge in a new DFR case will likely allow for evidence as well as how instructions to the jury are crafted. You like to talk about the fact that the evidence presented is still valid but fail to mention that USAPA was only able to present 10% of its case based on rulings for what evidence was allowed and the fact the Jury instructions almost dictated the outcome rendered. Now take a new trial, the 9th's ruling and the fact the next judge is more likely to be liberal in both sides presenting its full case along with jury instruction based on precedent and definition established from SCOTUS and see if it turns out the same. You are so confident, you ought to mortgage the home and see if they are running bets in Vegas on it.

 

[hp_fa]

ROACLT,

I am gong to disagree with one premise that you made in the previous post and that has to do with rulings, etc. There is much we don't know at this point about how this will play out since the Complaint seeks declaratory relief. Judge Silver will have to decide whether that survives USAPA's promised Motion to Dismiss. Once that is decided she will then need to decide whether the Addington Cross-Clam has, as far as she is concerned, become ripe with the filing of US Airways action.

Once we see how she handles those issues it will become a lot clearer on where this litigation may be going.

I have a question for you, or anyone else, as a member of East. Why are you moving to dismiss the company's claim? I would think you would want it to proceed in order to clear up the Section 22 mess and then be able to meaningfully complete negotiations on a new contract.

 

[Freebird]

Decisions a jury made based on only the evidence that was allowed to be heard by that particular judge, based on his particular rulings along with Jury instructions that failed to instruct the legal definition of "bad faith", as defined by SCOTUS. You fail to mention that this all a moot point with the dismissal.

What you should be more concerned about is what the 9th commented on along with ruling on ripeness. What a new judge in a new DFR case will likely allow for evidence as well as how instructions to the jury are crafted. You like to talk about the fact that the evidence presented is still valid but fail to mention that USAPA was only able to present 10% of its case based on rulings for what evidence was allowed and the fact the Jury instructions almost dictated the outcome rendered. Now take a new trial, the 9th's ruling and the fact the next judge is more likely to be liberal in both sides presenting its full case along with jury instruction based on precedent and definition established from SCOTUS and see if it turns out the same. You are so confident, you ought to mortgage the home and see if they are running bets in Vegas on it.

The jury was deciding the merits of the DFR. The Majority imposing upon the Minority. The Nicolau Award is complete. Your attorneys brought in evidence arguing about senoirity and how your career expectations of being a 767 Int'l Captain were ruined by Nicolau. The very person you chose to decide your fate.
EDITED TO REMOVE PERSONAL ATTACK ON A SPECIFIC INDIVIDUAL

The jury stuck to the case. They werent swayed by your 'renegotiating Binding Arbitration'. You are wrong. And will continue to be.



USAPA = Another day closer to age 65 with little money to show for it. Thanks AFO's.

 

[A320 Driver]

ROACLT,

I have a question for you, or anyone else, as a member of East. Why are you moving to dismiss the company's claim? I would think you would want it to proceed in order to clear up the Section 22 mess and then be able to meaningfully complete negotiations on a new contract.

THAT is a great question! Since I'm East, and have absolutely no say in what USAPA does or does not do, I can only guess like you can. And my guess is, they (USAPA leadership) prefers it stay ambiguous so it will languish in the courts long enough for East to absorb as much of the retirement movement as they can before (or in case) NIC takes effect.

Think about it...couple more years of negotiations and then a vote on a contract (that doesn't include the Nic). If, and that is a BIG if, the contract gets voted in DFR II starts, assuming West is unable to jumpstart DFR I again. On and on we go with the status quo.

Just a guess. Probably not even a good one, but there it is.

Driver B)

 

[luvthe9]

By starting a union with the specific intent of avoiding binding arbitration, and with the specific goal of using the majority to harm the minority.

And btw, I still think OJ is guilty even though he was never convicted by the court.

We did not start USAPA with that specific intent. Prove it. You can't and you know it. But please go ahead and try. Jacobs will make a fool of the west and himself again. I wonder what nice gem that court and judge will clarify this time? Every time the west takes USAPA to court, they make the case for USAPA. This will be more of the same.

 

[luvthe9]

The jury was deciding the merits of the DFR. The Majority imposing upon the Minority. The Nicolau Award is complete. Your attorneys brought in evidence arguing about senoirity and how your career expectations of being a 767 Int'l Captain were ruined by Nicolau. The very person you chose to decide your fate.

Lets not forget the facinating discertation of Integrity by Sullenberger the Sellout.

The jury stuck to the case. They werent swayed by your 'renegotiating Binding Arbitration'. You are wrong. And will continue to be.



USAPA = Another day closer to age 65 with little money to show for it. Thanks AFO's.

Can you say CLEAN SLATE? Leonidas=we pay for Jacobs to make USAPA's case.And it works!

 

[BoeingBoy]

Just a guess. Probably not even a good one, but there it is.

Driver B)

I'd say it's a pretty good guess. For a union to be as sure of it's legal position as USAPA claims to be, one would think they'd want the question resolved as quickly as possible so they can get on with negotiating a new contract. To me, it's the proverbial "actions speak louder than words."

Unfortunately for the younger East pilots, USAPA's actions may just be delaying the inevitable and adding to the bill that those younger pilots will end up paying.

Jim